Should able2know ban people for having untoward opinions?

Part of my point is that your little group... and Izzy in particular... are far more likely to participate in the dictionary definition of trolling than the people being labeled trolls. If you look the nasty personal attacks, they mostly come from you guys.

I think that making provocative posts is a good thing. If people are offended, they can simply ignore them.

It is the nastiness, the name calling and the personal attacks that are the problem with Able2know. The people who are called "trolls" on Able2know know are the people who don't fit into the ideological bubble. The people who are truly nasty and disruptive (and have the "correct" opinions) are generally respected by the in crowd.

Just because a Flat-Earther (incorrectly or not) uses science and scientific jargon to attempt to prove her or his point? Doesn't give her or him any more legitimacy or academic weight to his poorly thought out arguments.

This is a good point... but the question is how you respond. There is a excessive worry among the in crowd that someone might post something on the internet that is wrong. There is a compulsion to stamp out "incorrect" beliefs and when yelling doesn't work, it escalates to nastiness.

- Ignoring these posts is appropriate. Believe it or not, your angry posts in response don't have any real effect in stamping out these beliefs. You don't have to respond at all.

- Posting a factual response explaining why the science is wrong is also appropriate. Just be aware that once you do this, you are engaging with these beliefs. Since you can't possibly impact the belief of the poster or make any real difference in the acceptance of these beliefs... you must have some reason for engaging. Hopefully it is civil reason.

- Starting endless chains of insults is not appropriate (or helpful).

That is the problem on Able2know. Someone posts ideas that aren't popular, and it turns into pages and pages of unnecessary nastiness.

This is an open forum, the posting of weird ideas isn't the problem. Flat-Earthers should be welcome here. Anyone can choose to either engage with them, or ignore them (I have had no problem simply skipping these threads).

It is the nastiness from people who don't consider themselves trolls that is the problem.

You had a problem skipping the haiku threads—great example of your trolling.

I didn’t think there was anything wrong with you having a different opinion about Koko, the signing gorilla, but I was in a minority.

Despite minor issues, I think Max is right about what people call trolling here.

The majority tries to yell down people they don’t agree with and then become surprisingly personally insulting.

Makes for lots of back and forth meanness.

Frank Apisa gave a great example of deliberate trolling on a Bernie thread previous to his departure. I think he was doing the same on an atheist thread. Unwilling to countenance divergent opinions.

Bullshit. I posted haikus of protest in a thread entitled "haikus of protest" (I was amusing myself... but I am allowed to do this). Edgar chose to get upset, but this is not my responsibility nor was it my intent. When Edgar started getting really nasty I left. You will notice that after a brief little kurfuffle with that thread, I have skipped it. I chose to disengage.

If this is trolling... then anything is trolling.

You come to a haiku thread ... saying you hate the haikus, they’re ruining the site.

It was a haiku of protest to protest haiku. I thought it was funny. It was a joke. You and Edgar could choose to ignore it if you don't see the humor. I don't think my post on that thread was the problem.

Even if Edgar didn't see the humor, there was zero reason for him to respond. He didn't have to get nasty. If he didn't respond that would have been the end of that. Instead, Edgar couldn't let it go and it turned into far to many posts of insults.

If *you* didn’t respond, that would’ve been the end of it.
If I don’t respond, that’d be the end of it.


I liked that little arty oasis from arguing. You fucked it up.

Everyone feels some sense of injustice about how they've been treated on A2K, from the newbie whose first post is downvoted because people think it's AI, to the old timer whose valid point has suffered the same fate because it goes against the prevailing orthodoxy.

That's how it is, you can either suck it up and move on, or you can whine on and on about how unfair it is, how mean everyone is. If you've got no sense of humour whatsoever you can even start whole threads about how unfairly you're treated and how people should behave. You can then add healthy doses of paranoia with some casual bigotry while bleating on about how terrible it all is.

Most people are adults and take the first option.

You will notice that after a few reaponses, I disengaged. When the interaction stopped amusing me, I left.

I practice what I preach.

I do tend to punch back when I feel someone is being nasty. I am trying to learn to show molding restraint.

Izzy, you are hilarious.

I know, and you are incredibly dull.

You are exhibit A of the problem here, Izzy.

You make some of the nastiest, whiniest posts on Able2know... and you jump from thread to thread when someone pisses you off. I don't think there is anyone nastier, more insulting or more disruptive than you are. We can go post by post to see how much of what you say is mud slinging.

And yet you are accepted, even cheered, by the in crowd because you have have the correct opinions.

This could only have been written by somebody who believes there actually is an "ideological bubble". There are only two or three "trolls" I've encountered on A2K and as it is, they're all currently on suspension. You talk about an "in crowd" — I assume this select group is made up of members who've been on the site a long, long time and trend leftwards in varying degrees? And you think these people are somehow ideologically predisposed to thumb your posts down?

I think you've got it wrong and I've said this before, in response to an earlier posted version of this virtual chip on your shoulder: people are responding to your style of argument, not to any perceived violation of groupthink. It's possible to have some differences of opinion with people on this site whom you might usually be in total agreement with. It's not a big deal. It doesn't lead to rancor and thumb-downs . You know why? Because we conduct our discussions civilly. There's an element of mutual respect — gee, maybe that person's experience differs from mine. And we know that while we might disagree on one point we probably can find common ground elsewhere.

Yeah, sure. Respected so much that their posts routinely get down-thumbed into oblivion or they get suspended for long periods of time. Sure signs of popularity!

You're more of a problem, self obsessed, full of victimhood and controlling. You behave like a stroppy adolescent most of the time. You need to accept the fact that a lot of people think you're a dick and just get on with your life. Acting like a bigger dick won't help.

I don't whine about anything, but I can be very blunt when it's deserved.

You are a typical passive aggressive, you whine on and on telling people how they should behave and generally inviting a negative response, and when you get one you play the victim. That's probably about 90% of what you do here.

If, instead of claiming to find things hilarious all the time, you actually had a sense of humour, you'd realise how ridiculous you are.

I do not believe that this is true (other than for very minor differences of opinion). There is a set of positions that are fairly well supported in the US and/or academia that you can not defend here without being personally attacked.

I already had this discussion with MaPorsche... we set up an experiment which failed pretty badly.

Try supporting Christina Hoff Sommers view on feminism, or express any question that #MeToo has gone to far (both of these positions are far from fringe). Try arguing on free speech restrictions... or suggesting that the some celebrity Gorilla doesn't really know sign language and people here lose their minds. I would be happy to set up another experiment with you if you would like to try it. I think you will find that you are part of a group that will punish you if you cross into certain points of view.

I stand by my style here. I push arguments and ideas pretty hard, and I will stand by what I believe to be the facts. I have given in when I have see that I am wrong. And I never punch first with personal attacks. Anyone has the ability to ignore my posts, or my style or anything. I believe that I belong here, and I have found many people with whom I can interact respectfully. I am going to post and defend my opinions; popular or not.

I don't mind if someone tells me I am wrong, or that my ideas are completely offbase. I love it when someone provides new evidence or a different perspective that shows me I am wrong (which has happened). The endless threads declaring me a misogynist, lying, moron, whining, rape-apologist, passive-agressive, Nazi sympathizing, hateful troll...and the people who jump from thread to thread to make these attacks in unrelated topics... disrupt any chance for civil discussion.

In my opinion the problem is the nasty attacks and disruptive behavior by a group that has a fairly narrow set of opinions with only minor differences.

Good Izzy! You forgot that I am a misogynist, a loser, a moron, a fascist and a liar (I am sure there is more).

I've been wanting to say this on this thread as well as a few thousand other ones. Thanks Izzy.

Horray for Nastiness!. The reason there are so many personal attacks is that they are cheered.

This is another reason that things are nasty and that threads get disrupted.

1. Someone expresses an "incorrect" unpopular point of view.
2. Someone makes a personal attack.
3. Someone else piles on; cheering the personal attack. And the nastiness expands.

Tsar isn't adding to the discussion or making a relevant point, rather he is encouraging the personal attack. Cheering nastiness makes the disruption that much greater that the forum that much more nasty.

You are encouraging Izzy's personal attacks. This happens on many threads. If people stood up for different opinions, rather than cheering personal attacks, this would be a much better place.

How to Hold Healthy Grudges