Affirmative Action

Why do you say this, Noah?

" However, people would object to the more specific treatment of social ills, more than they would object to the generalized Affirmative Action, which simply makes most non whites eligible for the program."

0 Replies

onyxelle said it best, get some ass. Otherwise, Noah's postings are self-serving. I think he's trying to tell us how intelligent he is, but has failed with most. Wink

0 Replies

The fact is that in black educational performance, which Is viewed as a key to increasing opportunity, is not constrained by income. The test scores of black children reared in Affluent black homes is not much different from the test scores of kids from poor black families. On the other hand, family income and educational achievement is much more correlated in the white community. Thus, this points to the fact that there is something non-economical going on here. Furthermore, I think that the rate of black on black homicide in this nation shows a different respect for life in the black community than in other communities. Behavioral Psychologist notes that much of socialization and acculturation takes place via emulation. Over 300 years of treating black people violently and treating black life as being less than white life has resulted in many black emulating this mindset, because this is how society socialized them.

Hispanic poverty rates were much lower in 1970 than it is currently. It was very closer to the white norm or average than the black norm. That did not change until the influx of recent Hispanic immigrants. The Hispanic population has been the fasting growing population over the last 20 years, as they have recently become the nations largest minority. Of course, these recent immigrants from a country whose official language is Spanish do not speak English very well. It is also a fact that not being able to speak the language well inhibits one from many opportunities and forces such people into lower wage occupations. Not to mention the fact that many have illegal status and are forced into low-end employment.

Thus, it is obvious that being poor because ones family has just immigrated to America and cannot speak the language well or has an illegal status, that their reason and solution to poverty would be quite different from black people. The average African American has at least 12 generations in America. The African American knows no other language but English. The African American does not have an illegal status in this nation. Thus, you cannot cure the problems of poor Hispanics, by assuming that their problems are the same as blacks and visa versa.

0 Replies

This thread appears to be amusing, (A2K: Amusing to Know) but I really don't have the patience. Could someone summarize in 100 words or less? So I can catch up?? Drunk

0 Replies

dlowan wrote:

I cannot speak about affirmative action in your country - it seems to raise great ire - perhaps it is poorly done in the US? - but, as a principle, I strongly support it for disadvantaged groups.

My own personal veiw - a part of the reason AA gets such a bad rap here in the US is because those "disadvantaged groups" end up totalling about 70% of the population.

0 Replies

CI,

I wish you would not perpetuate that ad hominem.

0 Replies

Why don't you just delete those references with the quickness that you deleted mine? Do you think that I am not insulted by the proposition that I do not get enough @ss.

Also, while you are at it, why don't you AX some of the other posters to back up their propositions. Could it be that you are biased and only AX people that you disagree with?

Hey, no one ever said that moderators are fair...but be about a POWER TRIPING.

0 Replies

Noah The African wrote:

The fact is that in black educational performance, which Is viewed as a key to increasing opportunity, is not constrained by income. The test scores of black children reared in Affluent black homes is not much different from the test scores of kids from poor black families.

Please substantiate this.

Quote:

On the other hand, family income and educational achievement is much more correlated in the white community. Thus, this points to the fact that there is something non-economical going on here.

Perhaps, I am waiting for you to substantiate that alleged fact but do consider that it could be something so simple as black disenfranchisement with the system that transfers onto the education system.

Quote:

Furthermore, I think that the rate of black on black homicide in this nation shows a different respect for life in the black community than in other communities.

And I think the higher arte of poor on poor crime shows a different respect for life than that of teh rich.

It's no surprise, squalor makes lives less valued to those living in it.

Quote:

Behavioral Psychologist notes that much of socialization and acculturation takes place via emulation.

Yes, but not inhereted emulation, this is a crucial difference and is what makes your subsequent argument absurd.

Quote:

Over 300 years of treating black people violently and treating black life as being less than white life has resulted in many black emulating this mindset, because this is how society socialized them.

Do note that in other nations in which blacks and indians were more poorly treated and for longer this did not develop.

The black development of the United States is decidedly different from that of other nations in which the oppression was very similar.

Quote:

Thus, it is obvious that being poor because ones family has just immigrated to America and cannot speak the language well or has an illegal status, that their reason and solution to poverty would be quite different from black people.

Not really. See, there were other oppressed and enthralled peoples as well. Your contention that blacks are somhow mentally "damaged" is absurd.

And while your accessment of the reasons for Hispanic social class has some validity it ignores the similarities.

Oppressed peoples who have a high value on education as part of their culture overcome social difficulty.

The problems with poverty are not so simply as oppression (or education).

You simplify far too much in your desire to pin all current black woes on pridian transgression.

Quote:

The average African American has at least 12 generations in America. The African American knows no other language but English. The African American does not have an illegal status in this nation. Thus, you cannot cure the problems of poor Hispanics, by assuming that their problems are the same as blacks and visa versa.

Noting a difference simply makes no case for different treatment.

That is a glaring logical fallacy and ironically is very relevant to this issue.

The difference in skin color was long used as a justification for different treeatment. It was obviously unjustified.

I was very clear to ask that you substantiate the justification for a different approach. I ask because merely noting a difference makes no case for the justification of different treatment. If that were the case then treating blacks differently because their skin color is different would be justified.

0 Replies

Noah The African wrote:

Why don't you just delete those references with the quickness that you deleted mine? Do you think that I am not insulted by the proposition that I do not get enough @ss.

Because your insults were far worse. And because there is indeed a criteria, and how you feel is not involved in it (as people can feel insulted by a wide variety of innocuous things).

I have spoken out against it despite my dislike of your position. Your insults were deleted because they upped the ante and were vulgar and more deserving of censure.

Quote:

Also, while you are at it, why don't you AX some of the other posters to back up their propositions.

Because there is a more ludicrous argument to carp. The arguments I choose to engage in have nothing to do with fairness and are entirely my personal preference.

Quote:

Could it be that you are biased and only AX people that you disagree with?

Nope. The people I disagree with generally get more leniency.

Quote:

Hey, no one ever said that moderators are fair...but be about a POWER TRIPING.

Ahh the old teenybopper's standard play. Why not just call me a "forum nazi" too. ;-)

If I cared I would not be here so why waste your time. I couldn't care less if you think the moderation is fair. I am not a moderator, and I think the moderation is quite fair here.

Can't please everyone, especially not the ones who the moderators act against.

0 Replies

Sorry, Craven, will refrain in the future. Something about Noah that caused a temporary senior moment.

0 Replies

I am not going to go through the process of substantiating my propositions to you in regards to black educational achievement. The fact is that if you do not know what is true, then nothing can ever be substantiated. You need to do your own research so that you can personally OBSERVE the truth, because until you personally observe what is true, you can never substantiate a claim. Thus, what I present is anecdotal hypothesis based upon logical reasoning.

Furthermore, when I said damaged you never sought a working definition. When I say damaged I mean that black people have disrespect for self and they system that they reside in which is the result of years of oppression. I think that black homicides and illegitimacy are manifestations of this mental warping of oppression. The homicide rate of no poor people in America equals the homicide rate of black people. Furthermore, the nations of the world with the most violent crime rates of blacks are nations with a history of white oppression of blacks. South Africa, Jamaica, Brazil, along with Columbia have the highest violent crime rates in the world. Contrast this with the fact that 4 of the top 5 most violent crime free nations of the world are Burkino Faso, Senegal, Cameroon and Togo all places that slaves were taken from. Thus, the roots of black criminal violence were not born in Africa, but in their treatment or mistreatment in the West (or South Africa). These facts you can look up yourself and do not ask me to substantiate them, if you cannot substantiate that they are wrong.

Note that you have not substantiated any of your rebuttals.

0 Replies

Well, the post to which I responded has mysteriously disappeared, Setanta. You said the system was not flawed, and that various institutions of AA was currently helping to restore the off balance. Clearly you people just really don't like to be wrong.

Edit: Nevermind, I found it. What makes you think those programs aren't already part of AA? That's where the problem lies.

0 Replies

Noah The African wrote:

I am not going to go through the process of substantiating my propositions to you in regards to black educational achievement.

I know, you have lots of emotion and feelings and very little substantiation based on fact.

Quote:

The fact is that if you do not know what is true, then nothing can ever be substantiated. You need to do your own research so that you can personally OBSERVE the truth, because until you personally observe what is true, you can never substantiate a claim.

This is the lamest most convoluted excuse for not being able to back up one's opinions that I have seen in recent days.

Again, substantiate your outlandish claims. I don't want you to do any research for me, I want you to simply substantiate your idiotic proclamations.

Quote:

Thus, what I present is anecdotal hypothesis based upon logical reasoning.

Nah, what you present is an abrasively delivered opinion without the ability to substantiate it.

Quote:

Furthermore, when I said damaged you never sought a working definition.

So? I aksed you to substantiate your own claim, thatis all. This whole substantiation thing sticks in your throat because of your inability to do so.

Quote:

When I say damaged I mean that black people have disrespect for self and they system that they reside in which is the result of years of oppression.

And again, I ask you to substantiate your sweeping generalization.

Quote:

I think that black homicides and illegitimacy are manifestations of this mental warping of oppression. The homicide rate of no poor people in America equals the homicide rate of black people.

So? Why aren't oppressed black people in other nations in the same predicament? I believe you are right to say that there is somthing more than poverty going on.

But you do nothing whatsoever to substantiate your subsequent leap, which is to then generalize and assert precisely what is going on.

And you offer no substantiation for this leap of faith except the most arbitrarily selected circumstantial evidencde while ignoring the evidence against your "blacks are damaged" notion.

Quote:

Furthermore, the nations of the world with the most violent crime rates of blacks are nations with a history of white oppression of blacks. South Africa, Jamaica, Brazil, along with Columbia have the highest violent crime rates in the world.

I've lived and been to many of those places. Would you like to discuss them? You ignore a body of evidence against your argument.

First of all you are only partially correct that they are the highest crime rates, and secondly you ignore very relevant things like their being a guerilla war in Colombia that contributes to its crime rate and that has little to nothing to do with blacks.

Quote:

Contrast this with the fact that 4 of the top 5 most violent crime free nations of the world are Burkino Faso, Senegal, Cameroon and Togo all places that slaves were taken from.

That is simply false.

Quote:

Thus, the roots of black criminal violence were not born in Africa, but in their treatment or mistreatment in the West (or South Africa). These facts you can look up yourself and do not ask me to substantiate them, if you cannot substantiate that they are wrong.

They are wrong. I have no problem substantiating that you are wrong.

Here you go, the lowest 5 do not include a single one of the countries you name.

The above is a comparison of muder rates, which is more objective than a general crime rate because a more punitive society will be affected differently. But even comparing crime rates you are dead wrong and again not a single nation you mention is in the bottom 5.

See here.

In short when I challenge you and say you are wrong, I have absolutely no qualm in substantiating my assertion, now exhibit some intellectual honesty and try to substantiate your own arguments.

Now that we got you being wrong out of the way I'll move on to why it doesn't matter because even if you had the nations right you'd still be brainfarting.

You are comparining some very diverse societies, and even if the facts were true (which as I illustrate they aren't and do not even come close) your conclusions are not necessarily so.

You neglect to consider many factors. American culture is simply agressive, why can't that be an aspect of it? Blacks have been trodden in many places, as they have a very visual difference the prejudiced have long targeted them.

Their development in America is very different from in other nations, even with similar oppression.

You make a grave mistake to take circumstantial evidence and draw sweeping conclusions as there is plenty of contradicting circumstantial evidence.

Quote:

Note that you have not substantiated any of your rebuttals.

Note that this is pure bullshit. When I make an assertion I can back it up. I have largely just spent my time asking you to back up yours and watching you rationalize your inability to do so.

0 Replies

Check it out, this post is an 'add homonym'....

0 Replies

cav, Good one! LOL

0 Replies

Actually, the possibility that there are aspects of the the black experience in the USA which have become enculturated (as I think Craven acknowledges) and which are affecting people in the present day sounds quite reasonable to me - although it would, I think, be very hard to differentiate it from more external factors - such as racism, environment etc.

I really wish you WOULD substantiate your claims re educational outcomes of rich and poor African American people Noah - it is an interesting possibility.

It would be - and probably currently is - a very interesting research project to differentiate out the cultural factors which affect continuance of poverty in groups of people living in a rich country.

Obvious factors - such as the very high value given to education in Chinese diaspora culture - would seem intuitively to be important.

If there were clear differences between cultures in factors which were very germane to economic success and general social well being, then it would, indeed, make sense to offer support and assistance in different ways which might have more chance of addressing these factors.

Infant mental health research is gradually teasing out some of the important different general factors between wealthier and poorer parents re outcomes (those that obtain to the parenting cultures - the external factors are more easy to see) - and this research is likely to be very helpful in working with families. It is, of course, very difficult research to do because of the enormous complexity of the systems being looked at - and the ease with which effects which seem to be caused by the factor being examined can turn out to have different origins!

0 Replies

dlowan, I just want to warn about stereotyping ethnic groups such "as the very high value given to education in Chinese diaspora culture - would seem intuitively to be important." There are many poor Chinese as there are Asian Indians. Some are over-achievers, but there are also over-achievers in other cultures. I think we have 'impressions' of how different cultures seem to achieve in scholastics. Simply put, they study more. It's not a 'inherent' skill.

0 Replies

But generalizing doesn't mean that it's inherent. Neither is generalizing always wrong.

The oriental culture of education isn't just an impression, it's bourne out by fact. But I don't think dlowan was saying it's a genetic trait, just a cultural one.

0 Replies

I most certainly WAS talking about culture, CI! Hence the comment about the high value put on education - higher, in general, than in the Oz community in general - though of course there will be many exceptions.

And, I am sure there are poor Chinese, I know there are. Nonetheless, in terms of immigrants, I think there is good evidence suggesting the Chinese do very well and move up the economic ladder very fast.

I would posit the education thing as one factor in this.

0 Replies

It seems to me that what we seem to know about the Asian culture and education is somewhat limited to what we observe in the US and some other developed countries. If one visits China or India, that's not always the case.

0 Replies

Affirmative Action

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know