Affirmative Action

I affirm that there ain't all that much action left in these old bones but I ain't one to give up on trying.

I think all people should have a chance to be Cinde-RELLA, even if the shoe don't fit!

Rella, we haven't seen you in a while. How can I debate affirmative action with you when you post your topic in so many forums, and then choose a bodacious "come hither" avatar which I can only assume is you because you posted a pic in the gallery?

But seriously, I think of affirmative action like unions: Neccessary at the time of their implementation, but quickly running their course and usefulness.

lol... yeah, that's me. I've been really busy between work, school, plays and recording a demo.
How've you been?
You know, I don't think I ever did ask your a/s/l.

As enticing as the clown suit might be, I am spoken for. However, to answer your question, 33, male, and living in Toronto, Canada. Not to digress this topic too soon, but I am curious....what sort of demo are you working on? What kind of music?

the clown suit is quite seductive.
the songs i'm recording are:
-i'll be there
-on my own
-at last
-georgia (on my mind)
all bluesed up a bit.

I assume you are in the jazz/blues/torch song melieu?

oui.

On affirmative action - making things easier is not the same as placing everyone at the same starting point.

The way it's set up, it's all wrong.

Well, first off all, I would like to propose that all EMOTIONAL objections to Affirmative Action (AA) be discredited outright. Just because a persons FEELS passion for or against something does not make that something therefore valid or invalid, right or wrong, moral or immoral, just or unjust, fair or unfair. Ones FEELINGS, therefore, do not amount to a heel of beans…. or shouldn’t. That having been said, it is ones none emotional logical cognitions that is the only thing that matters or should matter in such an exploration of discovery.

First of all, one must start with a goal and not a label (AA). The goal of this society should be to promote equality of chance and opportunity between all equal entities of humans. One can never reach pure equality among humans in a perfectly fair world due to some individuals being genetically different from other individuals in certain cognitive, physical or emotional attributes. However, the resultant distribution would be that of a “Bell Curve” when graphed in X and Y coordinates. Thus, most people would be bunched in the middle, with a small standard deviation of difference, while a small percentage would be on the opposite extremes. Consequently, one can never have perfect equality in a world with individual genetic human variances…and one should not expect to. This is why I prefaced by saying that society should strive to promote equality of EQUAL HUMAN ENTITIES.

Now, I will start by making the proposition that this society should be about promoting equality between races, because I assume that all races qualify as equal human entities that do not posses’ inferiority or superiorities in cognitive or emotional ability. Thus, if there exist inequality between equal human racial entities, than it is due to differences in environmental stimuli or opportunity of one race or races relative to another or other races. In logical mathematical terms this is problem:

Given: X = Y.

Mathematically: The equality will forever hold true, provided that whatever is done to one side of the equation is also done to the other:

Thus: X + 10Z = Y + 10Z

The manipulation of the left side of the equation was matched by the equal manipulation of the right side of the equation, thus preserving the equality. However, if we treat one side of the equality differently than the other, we will corrupt equality and create inequality.

Thus: X + 10Z = Y + 3

The question at this point is how does one restore the equality? The answer is that at this given point in time, one or both sides have to be manipulated in equal and opposite ways to OFFSET the equal and opposite treatment at a past point in time.


This is the dilemma or inequality that AA attempts to return to equality. If you replace X and Y with Whites and Blacks you have the mathematical logical issue of Affirmative Action. One cannot solve this problem using EMOTIONS and Feelings, because emotions and feelings exist on a different plan than logic and reasoning.

The problem with most detractors of affirmative action who try to make a logical foundation to their emotionally rooted objection, is that they base their reasoning on the erroneous assumption that existence is static and points in time are unrelated. Thus, they look at attempts to restore a current or the current inequality in a vacuum that is unrelated to past events and effects. Thus, they rationalize current attempts to restore equality as…. creating inequality or discrimination. However, if they simply integrated the time continuum of existence, then they would logically see that current acts of programs like AA actually work to RESTORE equality.

Now I will grant that such programs lack oversight and foresight and proper implementation. However, there is no getting around the fact that one can not restore the equality by treating both sides the same going forward, for that will simply preserve the inequality. AA is an inefficient and generalized approach to solving an inequality, that does some good, but is really not the answer. That having been said, it does more to restore equality than NOT having it would result in.

What say YOU? What is your logical model against AA? Silence speaks volums :wink:

I don't disagree that the intention is good, Noah, it's just implicated wrong. Essentially, it just takes kids that are disadvantaged (or just kids that are minorities, actually, but I'll talk about that later), and rather than giving them the same advantage as everyone else, just make it easier for them to do things that everyone else. In other words, the problem is

X = Y + 5

where X is one group of people, Y is another, and the +5 is an advantage. The AA solution to this is

5X = Y + 5

which I think you'll agree doesn't equalize anything. In order to truly restore equality, we will have to tear down the system as it stands and make a more long-term, gradual program. It won't happen immediately. This problem exists because of hundred of years of US history that can't be overwritten in a second. But it is better than aggravating the current situation further. If anything, AA only directs more hatred at those who receive it. There is no logical model because society is not a logical model, and neither is popular opinion, which is really where the problem originates. People are not robots for you to command at will.

Rella, my favorite version of "Georgia on my mind" is Ella Fitzgerald with Joe Pass. Just one amazing voice, and one amazing guitar.

Oh yeah, hi Noah, I think you need a girlfriend.

good LORD!

onyxelle, as a fine specimen of Black womanhood, and one who is familiar with Noah, would you not concur?

oh yes. Gosh. If you disagree with something why the hell can't you just say so in laymen's terms? Why must you go on and on and on trying to prove your superior knowledge (or whatever) with all these Thesis-type posts?

I'm steering clear of you Mr. Noah the African. maybe you should get in on a game or to. relax.
Go get some ass even....

LMAO! I so agree.

heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

she said "go get some ass" . . .

heeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee . . .

I'd follow that advice my own self, but i ain't up to the eight hour drive this evening.


As for the topic at hand, i believe that a focus on educational and training opportunties, coupled with a vigorous enforcement of equal employment opportunity laws, equal housing laws and a close scrutiny of banks and insurance companies to end red-lining would all contribute far more to the "levelling of the playing field" than affirmative action programs. The concept is not flawed, but given human nature, the application likely always will be. "Tokenism" is the most likely consequence of a focus on affirmative action, whereas educational opportunity and fair housing, loan policies and insurance underwriting will all relentlessly produce children who have an equal opportunity to qualify for desirable employment.

I'm no fan of Noah's arguments but the "you need to get laid" tactic is just sad.

Please see this post by Joe and the subsequent discussion about this particularly insipid type of ad hominem.

As JL Nobody so eloquently said, "we all need to get laid."