25
   

Absolute truth?

 
 
Procrustes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 03:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
I suppose so, but i guess there is a learned 'truth' in any certain country that has traffic lights that one must learn to understand. So one must learn that one light must mean stop while the other means go. Although we still make that 'leap' to form those presuppositions that we 'ordinarily' take as 'givens'. Whether this is within the territory of 'absoluteness' is beyond me. IMO I don't like the term 'absolutes' that much. It presupposes a fixed/rigid/concrete notion of ideas or things that I don't think exists. Although that assertion is also debatable...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 04:49 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It's not about the color of lighted signals, because top lght is always green, and bottom light is red.


I've been driving for 25 years, and I honestly cannot tell you which light is at the top and which is at the bottom. I go by the color. Wink
I'm normally fairly perceptive, I guess the placements of the colors in the array isn't a priority to look for at intersections.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 07:53 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I'm probably missing something here, but it seems that a "set" cannot contain EVERTHING. There cannot be a single set, a unity, only a multiplicity, at least more than one. Imagine the "category" of everything. It would not be a category.
Of course I'm not talking about empirical entities. Sets and categories exist only as thoughts. Therefore I'm not saying that there is no single all-inclusive set IN THE WORLD, only that it would not be useful for thought to make one up.


Take the concept of everything (the meaning of the word "everything"): it must contain everything, otherwise it is no longer the concept of everything. So it must contain itself (the concept of everything). As you can see, the concept of everything is (already) a set containing itself.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:05 am
@Procrustes,
In our universe, absolutes becomes meaningless because we are subjective animals.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:06 am
@Cyracuz,
Habit can also get us into trouble dependent on the situation, time, and place.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 01:10 pm
@Cyracuz,
...yeah yeah but u better have people objectively agreeing concerning the red n the green colour ... Wink
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 03:04 pm
@guigus,
Yes, of course, we can and do have the concept of everything. Indeed, I think of Reality as an all-encompassing unity. But I'm talking here about the concept of a "set" or "category" of everything which is a contradiction. By definition sets and categories refer to members of multiplicities.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:00 pm
@guigus,
Quote:
Take the concept of everything (the meaning of the word "everything"): it must contain everything, otherwise it is no longer the concept of everything.


Hmm... isn't this a word that has meaning only in specific contexts? Same as "nothing".
"Go to the top drawer and bring me everything that's in there."
"I checked, but there was nothing in there."
(and no guigus, this is not proof that "nothing is the same as everything" Wink )

Conceptually, "everything" makes sense as the ultimate idea of "all there is", but such a notion is as unfathomable to our confined sense of though as the concept of "nothing" when it's out of context. Due to the mechanics of spoken language, these ideas are something as strange as words that betray their own meaning...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2011 08:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Habit can also get us into trouble dependent on the situation, time, and place.


That's why I think I don't want to drive in England Wink
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2011 03:35 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Yes, of course, we can and do have the concept of everything. Indeed, I think of Reality as an all-encompassing unity. But I'm talking here about the concept of a "set" or "category" of everything which is a contradiction. By definition sets and categories refer to members of multiplicities.


A concept is the meaning of a word, a meaning that contains a universe of objects: the concept of everything contains the universe of all objects, including the concept of everything itself. Therefore, it is a set containing itself (to contain something is the sole defining property of any set).
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2011 04:00 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Take the concept of everything (the meaning of the word "everything"): it must contain everything, otherwise it is no longer the concept of everything.


Hmm... isn't this a word that has meaning only in specific contexts? Same as "nothing".
"Go to the top drawer and bring me everything that's in there."
"I checked, but there was nothing in there."
(and no guigus, this is not proof that "nothing is the same as everything" Wink )


Are you flirting with me?

Cyracuz wrote:
Conceptually, "everything" makes sense as the ultimate idea of "all there is", but such a notion is as unfathomable to our confined sense of though as the concept of "nothing" when it's out of context. Due to the mechanics of spoken language, these ideas are something as strange as words that betray their own meaning...


Nothing is more unfathomable than a concept to which you deny its very meaning.
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2011 08:52 pm
@guigus,
It's not a matter of denying it's meaning, as I see it. It is a matter of understanding what is expressed and what is assumed by those who seek to understand.

All concepts derive their meaning from relation to other concepts. As such, no single concept has any absolute meaning or attribute. Even if we are to envision "everything" as just that; as "everything that can be, thought of as a singular unit", that only has meaning in contrast to the notion of "many separate things that make up this whole".

And no, I am not flirting with you. I am just aware of your fondness for semantics without responsibility.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 03:52 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

It's not a matter of denying it's meaning, as I see it. It is a matter of understanding what is expressed and what is assumed by those who seek to understand.

All concepts derive their meaning from relation to other concepts. As such, no single concept has any absolute meaning or attribute. Even if we are to envision "everything" as just that; as "everything that can be, thought of as a singular unit", that only has meaning in contrast to the notion of "many separate things that make up this whole".

And no, I am not flirting with you. I am just aware of your fondness for semantics without responsibility.


I'll try to be more kind of responsible and stop blowing up your cherished beliefs that high.

Now please tell me: What is the meaning of "everything" in the expression "theory of everything"?

(Those irresponsible physicists and philosophers... It is because of them that we are in this monetary mess!)
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 04:29 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Even if we are to envision "everything" as just that; as "everything that can be, thought of as a singular unit", that only has meaning in contrast to the notion of "many separate things that make up this whole".


Conversely, everything as "many separate things that make up this whole" depends on the concept of everything as that whole, because there is no part without a corresponding whole--the concept of a part depends on the concept of a whole.

Indeed, if the dependency on particular beings made a general being nonexistent, then, for example, the set of natural numbers would be nonexistent, for depending on the natural numbers.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 07:39 am
@guigus,
Quote:
What is the meaning of "everything" in the expression "theory of everything"?


Well, basically, it refers to the problem of general relativity (which describes gravity) and quantum mechanics (which describes electromagnetism and the nuclear forces) being somewhat at odds. The pursuit of a theory of everything is the pursuit of a theory that describes these things in one "language", so to speak.

I think the phrase was coined by Einstein, and though he started the work he never go even close to finishing it. Modern physicists refer to it as the unified field theory.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 09:29 am
@Cyracuz,
Would the "theory of EVERYTHING" (stated in a single "language") extend beyond the boundaries of physics (i.e., the unified field theory), to include even that theory and the process of its construction?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 09:49 am
@JLNobody,
...Everything by definition "engulfs" time, cause and effect, before and after...to ask for the "construction" simply makes no sense regarding a concept like the set of everything...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 01:25 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
What is the meaning of "everything" in the expression "theory of everything"?


Well, basically, it refers to the problem of general relativity (which describes gravity) and quantum mechanics (which describes electromagnetism and the nuclear forces) being somewhat at odds. The pursuit of a theory of everything is the pursuit of a theory that describes these things in one "language", so to speak.

I think the phrase was coined by Einstein, and though he started the work he never go even close to finishing it. Modern physicists refer to it as the unified field theory.


The expression "theory of everything" means a theory capable of explaining everything that exists, no matter the particular theories that eventually lead to it: if a theory fails to explain any particular phenomena, then it is out--understanding this doesn't require understanding relativity or quantum physics.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 01:29 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Would the "theory of EVERYTHING" (stated in a single "language") extend beyond the boundaries of physics (i.e., the unified field theory), to include even that theory and the process of its construction?


A proper theory of everything must go beyond physics, at least as long as physics expresses itself in the language of mathematics.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 01:31 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...Everything by definition "engulfs" time, cause and effect, before and after...to ask for the "construction" simply makes no sense regarding a concept like the set of everything...


A theory of everything must "engulf" time only in the sense that it must "engulf" itself.
0 Replies
 
 

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