8
   

Perception and physical reality

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 01:26 pm
@Cyracuz,
Riiiiiight !!!... Mr. Green
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 01:32 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Rolling Eyes
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 01:37 pm
@Cyracuz,
Goggle a little bit or do some reading and soon you will learn that my position unfortunately, it is not even original...after that we can debate further if you feel of course confident enough...
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 01:39 pm
@Cyracuz,
In particular, he might start by trying to define "an event". Wink
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 01:46 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Well, I'll just ask you to do as fresco suggests. Define "an event".
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 02:03 pm
@fresco,
You are frankly a laugh...just because mind further complexify´s how information is processed by symbolic conversion of data through yet another layer of code, thus building "new" meaning, you suddenly seam to forget that bottom line all rests on transfer of Information regarding actual states on the origin which are fundamental to produce any info, and how such data accommodates in its next receptor "host", given also its actual state at the point in which the info is to be received...Action-Reaction...SIMPLE !!! The difference between Mind and simple Matter in organizing Info according to emissary/receptor states only differs in complexity but never in fundamental nature...
And just before you even try let me tell you that I read Jean Piaget quite well...but just without getting "stuck" in there.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 02:25 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
You've mentioned "binary code" and "information". Kindly explain how your approach deals the definition of a "bit" (binary digit) as "that which decides between two alternatives". ....alternative what for whom ?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 02:40 pm
@fresco,
What 2 alternatives ??? What in the hell are you talking about concerning code building ?

No "bit" alone either 0 or 1 can mean much (although meaning something) without an actual full "message" being in place...what else ?

Is it the case that you are asking how such info is converted ?
And just how do you think English to Portuguese info is converted without loosing meaning, eh ? oh dear !

Any "agent" is a potential "processor" of Information, let that be you, a computer ,or just "matter".... the difference only stands upon complexity.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 02:58 pm
...and further... the problem runs so deep that we are not even able to tell any more the difference between "Hardware" and "Software"....

...could it be the case that a "processor" is just software, yet another coded program...can you tell what "Matter" is ?

...indeed I can now fully understand why a certain type of Institutional Philosophy is in its last legs...the "building" is falling apart top to bottom.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 03:09 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
You don't appear to be aware of the basic point that "information" is "observer specific" as is "event".(observer choice of action and selection of event window) Unless you seriously attempt to deal with those issues, you cannot hope to understand the nature of the epistemological and ontological "problems" which the OP has raised, and which have generated much philosophical discourse. IMO some promising views have emanated from "genetic epistemology" (Kant and Piaget on active versus perception) and "systems theory" (Von Foerster on the observation of observation) but at present you seem ill equipped to understand them.
I will leave the ball in your court.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 03:49 pm
@fresco,
And there you go again bringing in the "news"...so what ?
I tell you what in turn you don´t get is what "Observer" gets to mean anyway...
An Observer converts code/information from a source according to its own inner state to another set or layer or code bringing in new perspective between him and the observed object, but never against the actuality of such object being there as an emitter of an actual code, which is what is to be True initially...thus one can conclude that a code can be reconverted a thousand times but never in any moment instantiate that the emitter is not well defined just because its image can be recreated up to the infinite depending on the standing point of whom, or what observes...

I am not the ill equipped one here, to whatever, and that in spite of what you might think on my mediums for conveying strong view points not being at all conventional...I am proud of it, "self made man", self made thinking !
Loose the attitude ! You are the one falling behind...one just has to follow the damn posts to get it...
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 04:44 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Laughing
Indeed! Such a concept of "self" is entirely in accordance with the same ontological quagmire as the rest of the "objects" in your system.


Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 05:44 pm
@fresco,
...all that talk amounts to nothing Fresco...plain empty.
Anyway...I wish you God speed ! Wink
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 06:09 pm
Quote:
Information theory

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with information technology, information science, or informatics.

Information theory is a branch of applied mathematics and electrical engineering involving the quantification of information. Information theory was developed by Claude E. Shannon to find fundamental limits on signal processing operations such as compressing data and on reliably storing and communicating data. Since its inception it has broadened to find applications in many other areas, including statistical inference, natural language processing, cryptography generally, networks other than communication networks — as in neurobiology,[1] the evolution[2] and function[3] of molecular codes, model selection[4] in ecology, thermal physics,[5] quantum computing, plagiarism detection[6] and other forms of data analysis.[7]

A key measure of information in the theory is known as entropy, which is usually expressed by the average number of bits needed for storage or communication. Intuitively, entropy quantifies the uncertainty involved when encountering a random variable. For example, a fair coin flip (2 equally likely outcomes) will have less entropy than a roll of a die (6 equally likely outcomes).

Applications of fundamental topics of information theory include lossless data compression (e.g. ZIP files), lossy data compression (e.g. MP3s), and channel coding (e.g. for DSL lines). The field is at the intersection of mathematics, statistics, computer science, physics, neurobiology, and electrical engineering. Its impact has been crucial to the success of the Voyager missions to deep space, the invention of the compact disc, the feasibility of mobile phones, the development of the Internet, the study of linguistics and of human perception, the understanding of black holes, and numerous other fields[citation needed]. Important sub-fields of information theory are source coding, channel coding, algorithmic complexity theory, algorithmic information theory, information-theoretic security, and measures of information.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 06:17 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I was laughing at your attempt to ridicule fresco. Reminds me of a child who has just learned 2+2 trying to teach a mathematician how to do his job.

For the rest, I would advise you to take a good look at the assumptions you put at the foundation of your logic.
Umm.. straight up as a heads up, Cyracuz... you've got this wrong.

Believe it or don't.

The epiphenomenon encounters strings of words which it perceives as that which can not be denied. Is it word magic? No, but it sure as hell qualifies as mind magic for the effect it has on the epiphenomenon.

More word salad? Pass the Roquefort dressing, please. Hey, I tried.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 06:22 pm
Quote:
Computing and philosophy

Recent creative advances and efforts in computing, such as semantic web, ontology engineering, knowledge engineering, and modern artificial intelligence provide philosophy with fertile notions, new and evolving subject matters, methodologies, and models for philosophical inquiry. While computer science brings new opportunities and challenges to traditional philosophical studies, and changes the ways philosophers understand foundational concepts in philosophy, further major progress in computer science would only be feasible when philosophy provides sound foundations for areas such as bioinformatics, software engineering, knowledge engineering, and ontologies.

Classical topics in philosophy, namely, mind, consciousness, experience, reasoning, knowledge, truth, morality and creativity are rapidly becoming common concerns and foci of investigation in computer science, e.g., in areas such as agent computing, software agents, and intelligent mobile agent technologies.

According to L. Floridi "[3] one can think of several ways for applying computational methods towards philosophical matters:

1. Conceptual experiments in silico: As an innovative extension of an ancient tradition of thought experiment, a trend has begun in philosophy to apply computational modeling schemes to questions in logic, epistemology, philosophy of science, philosophy of biology, philosophy of mind, and so on.
2. Pancomputationalism: By this view, computational and informational concepts are considered to be so powerful that given the right Level of abstraction, anything in the world could be modeled and represented as a computational system, and any process could be simulated computationally. Then, however, pancomputationalists have the hard task of providing credible answers to the following two questions:
1. how can one avoid blurring all differences among systems?
2. what would it mean for the system under investigation not to be an informational system (or a computational system, if computation = information processing)?

The self-dual, self-interacting property of informational self-transduction has also been metaphorically described as infocognition and protocomputing.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_information
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 07:03 pm
@Arjuna,
I can't say I understand you here Arjuna.

Here's a quote from wiki:
"In philosophy of mind, epiphenomenalism is the view that mental phenomena are epiphenomena in that they can be caused by physical phenomena, but cannot cause physical phenomena."

That particular quote is very strange. Since when cannot mental phenomena cause physical phenomena? I am assuming that there are some very specialiced definitions of the concepts involved to make such a statement valid...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 07:07 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz, Good post. However, we as humans with our limited biology and ability to see and perceive facts as truth is not in our capacity. There are too many variables that play in our perceptions in how we see our own reality.

That's one of the reasons why humans crave religion and god(s). Our minds work in mysterious ways that plays tricks in how we perceive reality.

Humans have progressed in quantum leaps in understanding human psychology, but we'll never be able to see reality as it should be seen. Our biology will not allow it.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 07:19 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil

Stop trying to convince people that they do not get it.
Especially with bad english that we have to interpret for it to make sense. It is obvious that you are either failing to grasp something very essential to your ideas, or that you are failing to communicate something vital.
Try to communicate meaning, don't try to impress us with complex formulations and big words, because frankly, your english isn't good enough for it.

Nothing says "kid with an inflated sense of his own understanding" like conscistent errors in simple grammar...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 07:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The idea is that the reality that arises in the interplay of observer/observed is the only reality. Concepts of an actual reality which we cannot percieve are inevitable when we pick the concepts apart and deal with them individually. Or, that's how it seems to me, at least.
0 Replies
 
 

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