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Perception and physical reality

 
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not only biology; it's also our environment.


agreed

but without the enviroment life could not become
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:04 pm
@north,
No, what I meant was that our environment also influences our physical reality.
That the environment is required for life is a given.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:
No, what I meant was that our environment also influences our physical reality.


for example of what you mean specfically , just so I get the jist of what your trying to say , then

Quote:
That the environment is required for life is a given.


good
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:24 pm
@north,
If you are not aware of how our environment impacts our reality, I'm afraid you'll have to seek your answers elsewhere.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

If you are not aware of how our environment impacts our reality, I'm afraid you'll have to seek your answers elsewhere.


I know that it does , but in what way are thinking is what I'm asking of you
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 11:09 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna wrote:

Since what's meaningless is inadmissible, I've thought of it as a fundamental demand. I haven't really thought past that.

Meaninglessness itself is a demand of meaning. For anything to be meaningful, it has to be compared to something else... it's negative or opposite. What partakes of meaninglessness? It's the far end of the pendulum swing where the negative is absent. Like if everything in the universe was green, the word green would have no meaning.

Communicate implies unity... commune. As with Plato's reminiscence. You can't teach somebody something they don't already know.

Meaning also implies structure. The will to speak leaves the one bound to the rules required to say something meaningful. I've imagined that the will to speak created the structure of language in the first place. But maybe the structure was a translation of something deeper. If there's ony one will, perhaps there's only one structure.


Yes...you have done a nice resume on it ...Plato´s reminiscence does quite a good job on this concern...

Indeed one just brings about what there it is waiting to be brought up ...how else would we know what to do, whatever we do, if not by having what we do ?
The function of meaning is to have true value in the structure of Being...it fits a segment in the length of what is True!
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 09:39 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
One person says the table is, in a sense, a single note on the piano... which means it's actually the whole piano. The whole piano is "present" with the table.

Why don't I see the table as "everything?" Because that would be meaningless. Just as meaningless as seeing the table as being independent. (if it was truly isolated from me... then how could I see it and put my coffee cup on it?)

Meaning requires that the table be a single note -- in the foreground, but there must be the whole piano in the background. The table is the whole image including foreground and background.... why? Because if I drop either the foreground (particular) or the background (everything), then the image will have swung to an extreme which lacks the negative... therefore it will be meaningless and will disappear from consciousness.

Just replace the same scenario with "form" as the "idea of the table" and "matter" as formless stuff (there's no point in trying to figure out what it is, because that would be giving it form) and you have Heidegger's conclusion about what "things" are. (see Origin of the Work of Art)

So this is a translation of intuition about what's behind the curtain, which says that it's a mistake to try to see either particular/universal or form/formless as things you can dismantle and end up with something meaningful. Only the complex is meaningful... and part of the complex must remain hidden in the shadows. We discern this by noting the mechanics of thought.

The truth in the background here is the intuition itself... which is being translated, right?

"Particular/Universal complex" is an idea. It's a form. It's a notion about what a "thing" is. There aren't any real "complexes" out there floating around waiting to be encountered are there?? Because the complex is only an object of thought. Which means it's produced by the effort to understand, which involves analysis. So in this way, you could say it's "true", but you could also note that it's an "answer to a question." So it wouldn't exist in consciousness were it not for the question. It's a side-effect of the question. It's part of a "question/answer" complex.

This question/answer complex is how the intuition gets translated, right? What is the intuition itself? Reality impinging on consciousness? In other words... we things of the universal reality... we have all of it available to us and consciousness is the experience of this? And we reflect on the experience and see codes, rules, and complexes in it?

One last code that the mind spills out on this issue is this: Real Unity would be unknowable. Because You couldn't be there to see It. There are names for it though. Maybe distasteful to some, (but not to those who couldn't really care less) one name is the God Head. An invisible thing in the background of any systematic picture of reality... the unknowable.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 10:06 am
@north,
Our environment influences our reality, because it's the basis of what kind of shelter and food are available (some must struggle to survive every day, while others do not have any worries), the culture in which we are born into (includes religion, beliefs, government control, racial mix, climate, and income of the family) the language(s) that we learn, the opportunities for wealth accumulation, and the exposure we have to other cultures.

These, I believe, only touch the surface of what we can consider environment.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 03:15 pm
@Arjuna,
1 - Agree with most of it, but "formless" is a very dangerous word...

...yet I do accept that most forms must came out of one initial form that through sequencing assembling along an axis should bring about all the others as "effects" of the first through "programming"...absence and presence make binary code, as one should be the initial form and zero a plus one minus one null system...now what could be a minus one is a very good question...maybe an "inverted geometrical image" makes up a good metaphor of it...but still I am not satisfied with this descriptive "approximation" which still brings in ever more complexity in need of justification...

What in the hell would be an "inverted geometrical image" of the first form ?
...And the Axis, yet another unfortunately necessary added element, (container) playing as "Space" for the purpose of string code sequencing, would it be continuous or discrete ?
So again, how on heaven is this code linked or bind together along that Axis were the "Rule" or the Meta function System is written ?

I know nothing...even if I try to get the simplest of concepts to at least intuit a representative "image" of Being" , complexity still emerges out of it...

2 - And yes...I could n´t care less with institutional territorial dispute upon the name of such "Thing" be it God, Universe, or Rules of Nature...
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 04:22 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Ultimately what -1 is, is everything that's not 1.

Since 1 is unity, -1 is disunity.

The one becomes the two (unity versus disunity)
the two becomes the three (both unity and disunity)

the three becomes the fourth which is the one. 1-1=0 and 0=1

It's a pattern that happens everywhere.

A glass of water is 1
We see the water is divided between top and bottom...2
Both top and bottom...3
Is the original glass of water..1

The fourth part is a dual image... it's zero because the opposites cancel out, like male and female cancel out in a hermaphrodite and make a person with zero sexuality, but it's Human, which is the one that is originally divided into male and female. The union of male and female is also the child.... Human.

It's circular, but I guess it could be stretched out... like a sine wave.

We all have a built in digital to analog converter, and vice versa, huh?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 07:50 pm
@Arjuna,
The problem with disunity is transcendence...could negative one be just a change in axis direction of one itself ? just imagine a negative causal chain coming from the future nullifying out potential actions when encountering positive one running in a slightly unbalanced out of sync way...something like an inverted "spin"...a kind of matter anti-matter encounter in a "mathematical realm"...
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Oct, 2010 09:05 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The problem with disunity is transcendence...could negative one be just a change in axis direction of one itself ? just imagine a negative causal chain coming from the future nullifying out potential actions when encountering positive one running in a slightly unbalanced out of sync way...something like an inverted "spin"...a kind of matter anti-matter encounter in a "mathematical realm"...
You would have to freeze that image.

If you look straight at the 4th which is the one, you do see a cancelling out of oppositions. You taught me that the -1 was never really there. There never was something other than the 1. It never had an opposite. Or it's opposite was 0.

Disunity is the grand dream.

It reminds me of a myth about the birth of awareness. It goes that the fundamental substance of All is action. Action, by it's nature seeks to act upon something. It has nothing to act upon but itself, so it is action's effect on itself that creates primal awareness. Where the one meets itself, there appear to be two opposing. Secretly, it's only one.

It goes on: that something happens at this point of meeting... awareness includes the knowledge that what created it is going to destroy it, so a reaction develops which is primal identity.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2010 01:07 am
@Arjuna,
I admire your attempts to speculate mathematically on the subject of "form".
However, given that physicists currently need about eleven "dimensions" to account for what they at present are calling "the physical world" I doubt whether "pictures" (sine waves etc) even in four dimensions, are going to have much significance.

This is why I am advocating that we look at our actual acts of communication as the focus, rather than their "semantic content". As one writer put it (I forget who), worshippers in a church are "united" by their mutually resonant activity rather than the disparate and unobservable contents of their minds
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2010 01:55 am
@Arjuna,
Quote:
It reminds me of a myth about the birth of awareness. It goes that the fundamental substance of All is action. Action, by it's nature seeks to act upon something. It has nothing to act upon but itself, so it is action's effect on itself that creates primal awareness. Where the one meets itself, there appear to be two opposing. Secretly, it's only one.

It goes on: that something happens at this point of meeting... awareness includes the knowledge that what created it is going to destroy it, so a reaction develops which is primal identity.


The OP of this thread suggests a description of reality where awareness and physical matter are values that cannot exist independently of eachother. There can be no awareness without physical world, and there can be no physical world without awareness. According to such a view, a myth of the birth of awareness is the same as a creation myth. A theory about the origin of awareness is the same as a theory of the origin of reality.
The simplest way to express it is perhaps that both awareness (presence without form) and physical matter (form without presence) are expressions of "quantum action".

Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2010 07:03 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I admire your attempts to speculate mathematically on the subject of "form".
However, given that physicists currently need about eleven "dimensions" to account for what they at present are calling "the physical world" I doubt whether "pictures" (sine waves etc) even in four dimensions, are going to have much significance.

This is why I am advocating that we look at our actual acts of communication as the focus, rather than their "semantic content". As one writer put it (I forget who), worshippers in a church are "united" by their mutually resonant activity rather than the disparate and unobservable contents of their minds
M-theory is crazy, huh? What's a membrane? What is physicality?

I'm glad you admire my math. Easily recognizable to a Hegel fan. Wink
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2010 07:09 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

The OP of this thread suggests a description of reality where awareness and physical matter are values that cannot exist independently of eachother. There can be no awareness without physical world, and there can be no physical world without awareness. According to such a view, a myth of the birth of awareness is the same as a creation myth. A theory about the origin of awareness is the same as a theory of the origin of reality.
The simplest way to express it is perhaps that both awareness (presence without form) and physical matter (form without presence) are expressions of "quantum action".


The problem with myths is that people tend to take them literally.

Imagine the entirety of time in a gigantic NOW. If you see "this" without "that".... you're analyzing.
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Oct, 2010 08:43 am
@Arjuna,
I would account for that problem anywhere but in an environment of philosophers exploring and contrasting various patterns of understanding common issues. Wink

Myths are not literal history, they are allegorical expressions of cultural beliefs emerging through time. At one point written records were made, but even such records fail to establish any lasting consensus, it merely alters the way in which this phenomena emerges through human activity. And time itself emerges in the same manner, not along an established line, but from the seamless now. So all you have to do to experience all of time in a gigantic NOW is to simply not think about time.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2010 08:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Our environment influences our reality, because it's the basis of what kind of shelter and food are available (some must struggle to survive every day, while others do not have any worries), the culture in which we are born into (includes religion, beliefs, government control, racial mix, climate, and income of the family) the language(s) that we learn, the opportunities for wealth accumulation, and the exposure we have to other cultures.

These, I believe, only touch the surface of what we can consider environment.


true but what fundamentaly gives us the ability to perceive the physical reality is the molecule

do you understand ?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:38 pm
@north,
You can believe anything you wish; it it's the molecule, that's your perception.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yeah, just as long you know its an incomplete description with a true value for the Meta object...(Pan Object also fits)
0 Replies
 
 

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