FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:53 am
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:57 am
I've had that running through my head since Dashenka started this thread.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:01 pm
@Setanta,
Yep, it was the very first thing that popped into my head and wouldn't leave.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:05 pm
@FreeDuck,
I've had Bonnie Raitt's "Sweet Forgiveness." (Can't find her version on Youtube.)
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:22 pm
@sozobe,
Didn't know that one... found it on iLike. It's nice.

I also found a cover of Heart of the Matter by India Arie. Also nice. Sorry Dag, carry on.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:23 pm
@FreeDuck,
I thought it was interesting that this thread begin on Yom Kippur, which starts at sunset this evening. Granted, the UUs do Yom Kippur lite, but from my experience spending time thinking about one's transgressions against others, finding/feeling remorse, and asking someone for forgiveness for a wrong you have committed is very powerful (and difficult) for both parties.

I'm curious how some of the Jewish folks here think about atonement/forgiveness in terms of the discussion here.

I haven't read the link on the OP but will try to do so later.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:14 pm
I think forgiving others for their transgressions against me has been tough but I try. Forgetting, that's something else entirely. Over time, I suppose but don't believe it. The memory is there but I find myself hitting the delete button, thinking about something new & positive, moving on. The alternative would be to take action, or dream about taking some action. Not a good idea.
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:57 pm
@Setanta,
My sentiments exactly. Here in Central Europe, people still talk about the geese honking at the gates of Vienna to wake the Kaiser's army and warn them of the coming Turks.... that would be 1683. It's popular whenever the idea of Turkey joining EU pops up.... It's even funnier with the Hungarians, who are popularly confused with the Huns and Avars... Attila the Hun died in 450 and Avars were dispersed all over Europe....and have little to no connection to the Hungarians.... but nevermind. Yes, forgiveness and resentment are political animals on communal level, fed by the "carriers" of collective imagination. For better or for worse. Usually for worse.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:06 pm
@Pemerson,
Forgiveness on a personal level is a very therapeutic thing, I am sure. Although sometimes there is a fine line between true forgiveness and apologizing someone's behavior yet harboring secret resentment....not that I would know anything about this, ehm. But it can take time to discover the true emotion sometimes...
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:11 pm
damn geese.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:26 pm
@JPB,
JPB, this reveals the massiveness of my ignorance. The quote that started all of it was posted by a friend in Israel...It took me awhile to realize he was just trying to wish everyone a pleasant Yom Kippur. Luckily, many people jumped into the discussion, not only me....that is also the reason why i moved it here...

But i would LOVE to hear what it means to people personally on Yom Kippur.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:50 pm
@dagmaraka,
I'm not Jewish but the UUs have an annual Yom Kippur service that includes the blowing of the shaffar, some of the ritual hebrew prayers, and time dedicated to 1) reflection over the past year, 2) identification of those things you aren't very proud of and those things that you are particularly remorseful for, 3) acknowledging your transgression to at least one person who you may have wronged and asking for their forgiveness, and 4) accepting their response - whatever it is.

It's not always easy to admit you were wrong. It's not always easy to accept someone's apology. But it's easier, I think, when done in the spirit of true remorse.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:54 pm
@JPB,
ha, we do this after each day of workshops -- facilitators feedback :-)
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:24 pm
I think that forgivness on a communal level is when an event/wrongdoing is finally catalogued in myth/legend. Not the make believe kind necessarily but the kind where the personal historical relevence has become moot. People do not forget it. A group might even still use it as an indentity marker or ethnic rallying cry, but to the individuals in that group the even/wrongdoing itself does not hold the direct pain associated with that event.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:44 pm
@GoshisDead,
not so sure about that. there are events perceived as traumatic (collectively) that cause no personal pain to individual people, vast majority of them. yet they are a cause of great resentment. slovak-hungarian relations are riddled with such 'traumas' that go back 200 and more years (though most noticeable the Trianon Treaty, for Hungarians). Individually, there is no hurt, yet 'collectively' it is very alive. "Traumas" can survive many generations.

...i dislike the trauma narrative, i find it counter-productive and stretched.... as is forgiveness and memory -- terms from individual psychology liberally applied to groups as if they were living breathing organisms....far stretch for me, but as a social scientist i have to accept that it is a concept perceived as real to many...and thus i cannot dismiss it as irrelevant. i am mostly interested in functionality of these terms- what role they play in social and political processes.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:49 pm
@FreeDuck,
I doubt very much nothing actually works at the community level of forgiveness.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:54 pm
@dagmaraka,
Some have offered culture as superorganism analogies in which the community has a "life" of its own or is its own sort of entity. However I'm not sure how one could study such an entity in a real sense. This sort of leaves the individual the base of study.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 07:35 pm
@dagmaraka,
"An eye for an eye"dominates the Middle East. Both Muslims and Jews live by it. There is no talk of forgiveness except with cult started by Jesus. Yom Kippur is payment in the form of a "scapegoat" to passify the Hebrew God, Yahweh, to atone for their sins. There is no face to face interaction with the victim asking for forgiveness.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 07:36 pm
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” Mahatma Gandhi.

I think that's propaganda. Well-meaning propaganda, no doubt, but it's nevertheless propaganda, and it annoys me on a gut level.

Forgiveness can have two kinds of benefits. It benefits forgivers, who can stop wasting energy on the grudge they would otherwise be carrying. And it benefits the forgiven in that they are spared any harmful actions that the forgivers might otherwise inflict on them.

One point I find important about forgiveness: In order for it to work, it has to be unexpected. As soon as wrongdoers expect that their wrongdoing will be forgiven, that's an incentive for them to do even more wrong. So forgiveness, albeit a wonderful thing in individual instances, could never work as a social norm. It has to remain a rare, random act of kindness.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 07:46 pm
@Thomas,
Sounds pretty logical to me!
0 Replies
 
 

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