22
   

Is this abnormal for 4th grade homework?

 
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 09:46 am
@sozobe,
Mo had two pages of (appropriate math), one page of English, 20 spelling words and 30 minutes of reading last night so we haven't started this problem yet.

Mr. B does this EXACT same type of calculation every day, dozens of times so it certainly isn't a mystery to him. But even he missed Eva's brilliant observation that with an odd number of boxes you'd run out of one color before the floor was finished.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 09:59 am
I think that if there is any benefit at all to homework it's to build a child's confidence. Drills might do that. Math problems like this don't do that.

I'm not going to resort to the apologetics of "maybe this", "maybe that" , over what I think is an awful assignment.

I guess I'm more the type to question athority than to accept the status quo.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 10:54 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I think that if there is any benefit at all to homework it's to build a child's confidence. Drills might do that. Math problems like this don't do that.

I'm not going to resort to the apologetics of "maybe this", "maybe that" , over what I think is an awful assignment.

I guess I'm more the type to question athority than to accept the status quo.


But don't you think some important info is still missing before you can come to a conclusion about how awful the assignment is?

Like, how Mo does with it?

If he is able to do a problem that his parents and a bunch of grown-ups found challenging, that'd sure be a confidence booster.

(And if he thinks it's an awful assignment too, you can move on to talking to the teacher about what she had in mind with it, and do adjustments as necessary. She seems open to that.)
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 12:05 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Anna wants to retile her floor. In a catalog, she found a set of 9 inch square, white floor tiles and she thought they'd look great in a checkerboard pattern, alternating with black tiles. Unfortunately, her parents were unwilling to give her the $24.95 per dozen required, so anna saved her babysitting money and she was able to buy enough tiles for her 12' x 15' beedroom on her own.

If tiles are sold in packages of a dozen, how many boxes did Anna need and how much did Anna spend?

Don't forget -- these are 9x9 tiles, not 12x12.

12x15 room = 180 square feet
180 square feet takes 320 tiles.

26 2/3 boxes to tile the floor, but she wants alternating black and white tiles, so she needs 1/2 of them white and 1/2 of them black.

13 1/3 boxes black tiles, 13 1/3 boxes white tiles. So, 14 boxes of each.

28*$24.95 = $698.60

That's a lot of babysitting.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 12:08 pm
@DrewDad,
GDI, here I am two pages too late....
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 01:03 pm
You're still most welcome here, DrewDad!

Maybe I am missing something. I think I'll ask 3 4th graders how to calculate the square footage of a room. If they can't answer without being prompted I'll know the assignment is bullshit.

But truly, the only think I think I'm missing is a reason why the teacher assigned this problem.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 01:09 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad, do you think this is a reasonable homework problem for a 4th grader?

roger
 
  4  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 01:19 pm
@boomerang,
The problem was complex, and maybe a little ambiguous. Any 4th grader who can't come up with the square footage of a normally shaped room has probably been promoted on social merits.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 01:39 pm
@roger,
Really? Without prompting? Hmmm.....

Do you think special education kids are only promoted on a social basis? Do you think they should be held back until they master the grade level work?
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 01:46 pm
When I was in elementary school they divided up the clasess like this 4-1s (morning class, 4th grade) 4-2s (afternoon class, 4th grade), 3-4-3s (for the smart 3rd graders, slow 4th graders).

That was really a pretty cool deal now that I think about it.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 02:06 pm
Here's a list of all the math skills the 'average' student should be able to do and understand by the end of fourth grade. Multiplying decimals is not one of them. That's a skill necessary to complete the problem you posted.

Area and Volume are not taught until fifth grade in most curriculums. Remembering the formulas is fairly simple, but as yet, they haven't covered the concepts of squares or cubes so when you say a room is 12x15m so the area of that room is 180 square meters - they don't understand yet what that means.
I think this problem would have been much more appropriate for fifth grade or possibly even sixth grade when all of the separate skills and concepts have been covered and mastered because basically what this problem is assessing is problem solving or thinking skills much moreso than simple computational ability.

But this is a great site - I'd use it if I had an elementary school pupil who might need extra help with math:



Quote:
Practice >> Fourth grade
Here is a list of all of the skills students learn in fourth grade! The skills are organized into categories, and you can move your mouse over any skill name to see a sample question. To start practicing, just click on any link. IXL will track your score, and the questions will even increase in difficulty as you improve!

Number sense
A.1 Place values
A.2 Convert between place values
A.3 Word names for numbers
A.4 Roman numerals
A.5 Prime and composite numbers
A.6 Rounding
A.7 Even and odd
A.8 Inequalities with number lines
A.9 Compare numbers up to billions
Addition
B.1 Add numbers up to millions
B.2 Add numbers up to millions: word problems
B.3 Fill in the missing digits
B.4 Properties of addition
B.5 Add 3 or more numbers up to millions
B.6 Addition patterns over increasing place values
B.7 Choose numbers with a particular sum
B.8 Estimate sums
B.9 Estimate sums: word problems
Subtraction
C.1 Subtract numbers up to millions
C.2 Subtract numbers up to millions: word problems
C.3 Fill in the missing digits
C.4 Subtraction patterns over increasing place values
C.5 Choose numbers with a particular difference
C.6 Estimate differences
C.7 Estimate differences: word problems
Multiplication
D.1 Multiplication facts to 12
D.2 Choose the multiples of a given number up to 12
D.3 Multiply 1-digit numbers by larger numbers
D.4 Multiplication patterns over increasing place values
D.5 Properties of multiplication
D.6 Estimate products
D.7 Estimate products: word problems
D.8 Multiply a 2-digit number by a 2-digit number: complete the missing steps
D.9 Multiply a 2-digit number by a 2-digit number
D.10 Multiply a 2-digit number by a 2-digit number: word problems
D.11 Choose numbers with a particular product
D.12 Multiply a 2-digit number by a larger number: complete the missing steps
D.13 Multiply a 2-digit number by a larger number
D.14 Multiply a 2-digit number by a larger number: word problems
D.15 Multiply numbers ending in zeroes
D.16 Multiply numbers ending in zeroes: word problems
D.17 Multiply 3 numbers up to 2 digits each
D.18 Inequalities with multiplication
Division
E.1 Division facts to 12
E.2 Division facts to 12: word problems
E.3 Properties of division
E.4 Divide larger numbers, one-digit divisors
E.5 Divide larger numbers, one-digit divisors: word problems
E.6 Divide by 1-digit numbers: complete the table
E.7 Divide by 1-digit numbers: interpret remainders
E.8 Choose numbers with a particular quotient
E.9 Divide numbers ending in zeroes, one-digit divisors
E.10 Estimate quotients, one-digit divisors
E.11 Divisibility rules
E.12 Division patterns over increasing place values
E.13 Divide numbers ending in zeroes, multi-digit divisors
E.14 Divide numbers ending in zeroes, multi-digit divisors: word problems
E.15 Divide 2-digit numbers by multiples of 10
E.16 Divide by 2-digit numbers
E.17 Divide by 2-digit numbers: word problems
E.18 Divide larger numbers by 2-digit numbers
E.19 Divide larger numbers by 2-digit numbers: word problems
E.20 Inequalities with division
E.21 Estimate quotients
Mixed operations
F.1 Add, subtract, multiply, and divide
F.2 Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division word problems
F.3 Estimate sums, differences, products, and quotients: word problems
F.4 Multi-step word problems
F.5 Word problems with extra or missing information
F.6 Solve word problems using guess-and-check
F.7 Choose numbers with a particular sum, difference, product, or quotient
F.8 Mentally add and subtract numbers ending in zeroes
F.9 Inequalities involving addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division
Algebra
G.1 Write variable expressions
G.2 Write variable expressions: word problems
G.3 Evaluate variable expressions
G.4 Simplify expressions using order of operations and parentheses
G.5 Write variable equations to represent word problems
G.6 Solve variable equations
Functions
H.1 Input/output tables with addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division
H.2 Function tables
H.3 Write linear functions
H.4 Graph linear functions
Coordinate graphs
I.1 Coordinate graphs review
I.2 Relative coordinates
I.3 Coordinate graphs as maps
Data, charts, and graphs
J.1 Read a table
J.2 Interpret line graphs
J.3 Create line graphs
J.4 Interpret bar graphs
J.5 Create bar graphs
J.6 Interpret line plots
J.7 Create line plots
J.8 Frequency charts
J.9 Stem-and-leaf plots
J.10 Circle graphs
J.11 Choose the best type of graph
Logical reasoning
K.1 Guess two numbers based on sum and difference
K.2 Guess two numbers based on sum, difference, product, and quotient
K.3 Find the order
Patterns
L.1 Geometric growth patterns
L.2 Increasing growth patterns
L.3 Numeric patterns: word problems
L.4 Mixed patterns review
Money
M.1 Compare money amounts
M.2 Round money amounts
M.3 Add and subtract money amounts
M.4 Add, subtract, multiply, and divide money amounts
M.5 Making change
M.6 Price lists with addition and subtraction
M.7 Price lists with multiplication
M.8 Unit prices
Measurement
N.1 Compare and convert customary units
N.2 Compare and convert metric units
N.3 Compare customary units by multiplying
N.4 Convert mixed customary units
N.5 Add and subtract mixed customary units
N.6 Convert between metric and customary units
Time
O.1 Convert time units
O.2 Add and subtract mixed time units
O.3 Fractions of time units
O.4 Time zones
O.5 Elapsed time
O.6 Find start and end times: multi-step word problems
O.7 Transportation schedules
O.8 Time patterns
Geometry
P.1 Identify planar and solid figures
P.2 Types of triangles
P.3 Open and closed shapes and qualities of polygons
P.4 Which 2-dimensional shape is being described?
P.5 Which 3-dimensional figure is being described?
P.6 Number of sides in polygons
P.7 Count and compare sides, edges, faces, and vertices
P.8 Similar and congruent
P.9 Nets of 3-dimensional figures
P.10 Acute, right, obtuse, and straight angles
P.11 Angles of 90, 180, 270, and 360 degrees
P.12 Measure angles with a protractor
P.13 Parts of a circle
P.14 Perimeter
P.15 Area of squares and rectangles
P.16 Area of complex figures (with all right angles)
P.17 Volume
P.18 Use area and perimeter to determine cost
P.19 Rotational symmetry
P.20 Lines of symmetry
P.21 Lines, line segments, and rays
P.22 Parallel, perpendicular, intersecting
P.23 Calculate radius, diameter and circumference
Fractions and mixed numbers
Q.1 Equivalent fractions
Q.2 Patterns of equivalent fractions
Q.3 Reduce fractions to simplest form
Q.4 Fractions review
Q.5 Compare fractions
Q.6 Order fractions from least to greatest
Q.7 Fractions of a number
Q.8 Fractions of a number: word problems
Q.9 Mixed number review
Q.10 Convert between improper fractions and mixed numbers
Add and subtract fractions
R.1 Add and subtract fractions with like denominators
R.2 Add and subtract fractions with like denominators: word problems
R.3 Add 3 or more fractions with like denominators
R.4 Add fractions with unlike denominators
R.5 Subtract fractions with unlike denominators
R.6 Add and subtract fractions with unlike denominators: word problems
R.7 Add 3 or more fractions with unlike denominators
R.8 Add 3 or more fractions with like and unlike denominators: word problems
R.9 Find the missing numerator or denominator in addition and subtraction sentences
R.10 Add and subtract mixed numbers with like denominators
R.11 Add and subtract mixed numbers with unlike denominators
R.12 Add and subtract mixed numbers with like and unlike denominators: word problems
R.13 Inequalities with addition and subtraction of fractions
R.14 Recipes
Multiply fractions
S.1 Multiply fractions by whole numbers I
S.2 Multiply fractions by whole numbers II
S.3 Multiply fractions by whole numbers: word problems
Decimals
T.1 What decimal number is illustrated?
T.2 Understanding decimals expressed in words
T.3 Place values in decimal numbers
T.4 Equivalent decimals
T.5 Decimal number lines
T.6 Convert fractions and mixed numbers to decimals
T.7 Convert decimals to fractions and mixed numbers
T.8 Compare decimals and fractions
T.9 Round decimals
T.10 Compare decimal numbers
T.11 Put decimal numbers in order
T.12 Number sequences involving decimals
T.13 Solve decimal problems using diagrams
Add and subtract decimals
U.1 Add decimal numbers
U.2 Subtract decimal numbers
U.3 Add and subtract decimals: word problems
U.4 Choose decimals with a particular sum or difference
U.5 Add 3 or more decimals
U.6 Add 3 or more decimals: word problems
U.7 Complete the addition or subtraction sentence
U.8 Inequalities with addition and subtraction
U.9 Estimate sums and differences of decimals
Probability and statistics
V.1 Calculate probability
V.2 Make predictions
V.3 Mean, median, mode, and range
V.4 Interpret charts to find mean, median, mode, and range
V.5 Combinations
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 02:16 pm
Just asked sozlet, was curious what she would come up with. Her way:

One side of the room is 12 feet. 12' X 12" = 144 inches. Divide that by 9 to get how many tiles on one side of the room = 16 tiles across.

The other side of the room is 15 feet. 15' X 12 = 180 inches. Divide that by 9 = 20 tiles across.

16 tiles X 20 tiles = 320 tiles total for the room.

Divide that by 2 to get how much of each color.

160 divided by a dozen equals 13 + (she didn't pay much attention to the +, just meant she needed to round up. So 14 of each color).

14 X $24.95 = $349.30

If Anna is buying just white tiles (sozlet thought that part wasn't clear), that's how much she needs to spend.

If she's buying white and black tiles, $698.60.



Through the number of tiles needed, it seemed pretty straightforward. She didn't like the weird dollar amounts though ("why not just $25?") and didn't like the ambiguity re: whether white tiles or both were needed.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 02:42 pm
@aidan,
Excellent link and info., aidan. Thank you!
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 02:43 pm
@sozobe,
Cool! Sozlet rocks!
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 03:01 pm
@boomerang,
Yes, without prompting.

No, I do not think this is abnormal for 4th grade homework. Did you mean, is it normal for special education kids? I have no idea. That isn't what you asked.
Izzie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 03:08 pm
@roger,
Hey Boomer...

Personal 2 Cents holey schmoley... Shocked

Will print this off at work tomorrow and ask my teachers to put it forward in the maths lesson... we have mixed classes with age spans of 6-11 but will just ask the 9 years old to have a go. Being honest, I don't see one of these children being able to to do this... I may be pleasantly surprised - we have 53% SEN this year...

but will be interesting to see the differences in working out etc

I don't think they will have any clue ... hmmmmmmmmmm... interesting at the different levels of education/bars/teaching, sizes of school etc.

Will report back.



Wow SOZLET - she does rock Very Happy


<I did it the long way round... came up with the same figure evenutally, but no... not that easy!>
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 03:20 pm
@boomerang,
It's been a long time since I was in the 4th grade....

Converting from square feet to square inches seems a bit advanced, and the bit about needing two kinds of tiles seems pretty tricky.

I would assume that the teacher has been covering these concepts in class, so that it is only an application of what's currently being taught.




Yaya just started 1st grade this year. I've had to roll my eyes several times about the math homework. Last week, they had to come up with five ways to add up to six, which, assuming they only want positive integers, means that they did:

1+5, 2+4, 3+3, 4+2, and 5+1. This completely ignores the commutative property, and they are considering 1+5 and 5+1 to be different things.

This week, the lesson is all about how 1+5 and 5+1 are the same thing.

I wanted to go down and give the teacher a math lesson.

The final problem was adding symbols, which totally confused Yaya, since you can't really add a triangle and a circle. (They wanted her to see that triangle + circle is the same as circle+triangle, which is fine, but it came out of left field, IMO.)



So to sum up... homework is stupid.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 03:47 pm
@sozobe,
I haven't tried it yet, not being in the mood last night when I read the question (too much like some of my old work tasks, fer heven sakes) and by this morning just amused by all the different answers.

I decided I'd look at it this afternoon when I got back from the grocery store, but still haven't applied my reluctant self. Still, on the way to the store I thought how I'd do it, and it mirrors what I now see Sozlet came up with. I still haven't applied myself though, what with my reluctance factor (impedance?).

I did think it would be fun to grab my 1/4" grid paper and play with it as 1/4" = 9" or 0.75'. Perhaps even color the squares. We'll see. (I might rather clean the refrigerator.)

I do think the question is tricky for fourth grade. Even the black and white square thing in itself seems too tricky for that level, confusing to many.

As a first math homework thing, it seems a knockout punch.

It reminds me a little of a class I had at university in Serology, which had a lot of beginning immunology matters rolled into the lectures. There were three of us at the head of the class grades all the way through, including our experiments, and including A's in the final, except that we all missed, for different reasons, the mid term.
Me, I remember I was busy throwing up from the flu.

So, the instructor gave us a makeup test, a single question about how would we devise an experiment re (whatever, I forget). All three of us f'ked it up completely, what?, so we got F's on the midterm and C's in Serology. I remember thinking it was a tricky question directed at us three in particular as a challenge, whereas the rest of the class got a regular one hour multi question ordinary test.

Boo hoo, except that memory is long, and Mo's math question triggered that memory.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 03:49 pm
@ossobuco,
Oh, and re tiling real floors, always buy too much. There is breakage, and the extra is returnable.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2010 04:49 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

...even he missed Eva's brilliant observation....


I am printing this out and saving it, boomer. You have no idea how poorly I did in math when I was in school! I almost flunked Algebra I. I managed a B in high school Geometry only because it was so visual. I never went any further. Classic case of math anxiety...and I still have it.

This is a real world problem, though. I've actually had to calculate black and white tiles for a checkerboard floor, so it didn't intimidate me.

Anyway, thank you. You made this math dummy's day.

Now, watch Mo's paper come back with "27 boxes" as the "correct" answer. Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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