14
   

Omama just made a "barn burner" speech - hurrah!

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:02 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
In particular the law of unintended consequences appears to have revealed itself in the decided lack of entrepreneurial activity by Americans and their businesses as they contemplate the unknowns of higher taxes, increased and unpredictable government regulation and an administration that is increasingly given to themes of class warfare and forced redistribution in its rhetoric.


This is a complete falsehood, a political meme pushed by your side - and one for which there conveniently is not a shred of evidence or provability. Only assertions. Which is why you go straight for it; I mean, this argument was practically invented for those who refuse to even discuss proof, such as yourself, George.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=uncertainly_wrong

Quote:
Uncertainly Wrong

Mark Schmitt | September 9, 2010

The buzzword of this election year, at least for Republicans, is "uncertainty." House Republican Leader John Boehner uses the word at every opportunity: "Small-business operators ... are filled with massive uncertainty." "When there is that much uncertainty employers just freeze. ... They are afraid to move forward because they don't know what is coming next." The expiring Bush tax cuts, implementation of financial regulation and health reform, and the lingering possibility that Congress will pass cap-and-trade climate legislation are all blamed for this paralyzing doubt.

Unlike other Republican election-year lines, this one makes superficial sense. These are scary times for anyone thinking about investing or hiring, or anyone looking for a job and trying to decide whether to take a pay cut or change careers. Who isn't aware that the economy's next move could be up, down, or sideways?

And as a political theme, "uncertainty" is also brilliantly evasive. Republicans who are willing to advocate specific and massive spending cuts, like Rep. Paul Ryan, and those who prefer vagueness, which are all the others, seem to agree that we need more certainty. And for independent and moderate Democratic voters who were made uncomfortable by the process of passing health reform but still generally favor President Obama's policies, "uncertainty" plays on their anxieties about the odd twists and turns of Washington.

And yet, for all its superficial common sense and political utility, there are more things wrong with the uncertainty argument than there is space for in this column. Let's start with the question of who's actually responsible for uncertainty. It's true that investors don't know what tax rates will be next year when the Bush tax cuts expire. But why did the Republican Congresses of 2001 and 2003 create tax cuts that were wired to expire? It was because doing so allowed them to exclude Democrats from the negotiations on those cuts. Today's uncertainty was baked in nine years ago, by the same people who are now capitalizing on it.

Obama has proposed renewing the tax cuts only for those who earn $250,000 or less. Since majorities in both the House and Senate support that proposal, in theory there should be no uncertainty. But Republicans will use every institutional power to fight Obama's proposal. Will they succeed in blocking the majority? That big question is the source of uncertainty.

Republicans seem unaware that whining about uncertainty contradicts one of their fundamental economic principles: Entrepreneurs and businesspeople are risk-takers who should be rewarded for their daring. But now we're told that those same daredevils are "paralyzed" if they don't know whether their income-tax rate will be 33 percent or 36 percent. When did conservatives become such wimps?


If this paralysis is real, perhaps it's a legacy of the financial-sector boom of the 2000s, which depended on the illusion of certainty. Most of corporate America fell for the idea that risk could be quantified, calculated, and hedged -- and thus real uncertainty could be eliminated. Uncertainty isn't what caused the current economic situation; it was too much certainty about things that weren't certain at all.

There is a way to provide investors -- as well as workers and families -- with the confidence they need to take risks and move forward. The answer isn't, as Republicans suggest, to do nothing or continue to cut taxes. Rather, it's to build the structures that provide a platform of security and predictability. Health-care reform, for example, if implemented well, should help reduce the spikes in premiums that made businesses reluctant to hire because they couldn't know the actual cost of a new employee. Financial regulation will promote a more stable economy by encouraging "vanilla" products with predictable interest rates rather than exotic instruments with unknown risks. An economic plan focused on steady growth and long-term deficit reduction can create a smooth and predictable path for investors to follow, while helping to restore the productivity of our un- and underemployed workers, whereas the rapid and premature withdrawal of federal stimulus spending proposed by Ryan and other Republicans will spark yet another roller coaster of disasters and bailouts.

The mantra of "uncertainty" is as subtle and smart a political slogan as the Republican wordsmiths have ever cooked up. But rather than being defensive or trying to change the subject, progressives should take it head on: It's the political maneuverings of the Bush administration and the scams of Wall Street that created uncertainty. And it's progressive policies, from the New Deal to the present, that hold the answer. Time after time, we've given people new confidence in their economic potential, and insurance against the greatest risks, and we must do so again.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:15 pm
Some more:

If you dispute these “fact,” I want to see credible sources for them.

Quote:
In the US, 75 percent of the package is supposed to be deployed in the first 18 months – that is, before the end of 2010. So the next few months could be telling.
“It’s very early to make a final or quasi-final judgment” on whether the package provided a good boost to the economy, says Anne Vorce, an economist at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, a bipartisan Washington group pushing for taming the budget deficit. Nonetheless, she figures the cost of stimulus action was lower than the cost of inaction would have been.

Newsweek:
Unfortunately, investing in tomorrow won't automatically stimulate the economy today. The $819 billion program passed by the House would only slowly provide stimulus. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that in fiscal 2009 (through this September) about 21 percent of the new spending and tax cuts would flow to the economy. For 2010, the estimate is an additional 44 percent. The total of 65 percent means that, by the CBO's estimate, about a third of the $819 billion package would be spent after fiscal 2010. That falls far short of Obama's stated goal of 75 percent in the first 18 months.

Forbes:
From this, Romer and Bernstein estimated that the $775 billion stimulus package then being proposed by the administration would ultimately raise GDP by $433 billion or 3.7%. Since we know from experience that each one percentage point rise in real GDP creates approximately 1 million jobs, they concluded that the stimulus would create 3.7 million jobs.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:24 pm
Gosh ! I guess you guys are right. Things are looking good. Businesses are investing and hiring new workers; entrepreneurs, emboldened by their confidence they can calculate and manage the risks and uncertainty ahead, are boldly creating new businesses and adding new employees; and the stupid public is beginning to understand what the mantra of left wing savants that publkic debt doesn't matter. Let's all welcome the new Argentina !
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:29 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
. . . the mantra . . . that publkic [sic] debt doesn't matter.


That's ironic coming from the right wing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:32 pm
@georgeob1,
Come on, georgeob, you know better than that. Most economists think we are on the road to recovery, but one that will take years to stabilize.

I'm in agreement that our government needs to do more to help stimulate jobs.

Our media continues to provide us with mixed messages on our economy; one week it's good, and the next, it's bad. If you've been watching the stock market, you'll know exactly what I'm saying.

It's my personal contention that we still haven't seen bottom until our unemployment begins to decrease. As we all know, our country must create a minimum of 150,000 jobs per month to maintain our economy. We're not going to see that for many years, and the road ahead will be a bumpy one. How our government and the feds help or hinder our economy will be the issues that must be addressed; no easy task.

I believe more infrastructure spending is needed to stimulate our economy over spending our money on wars. That's the equation that's missing to shorten this recession.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:36 pm
@Setanta,
Well, I don't represent "the right wing", and I do agree that politicians generally, both left and right, are inclined to address their short term concerns by adding to a growing, long-term mountain of public debt. That they should be resisted in this is hardly contradicted by historical experience. Whether one adds to public debt in the name of national security or the general economic welfare is immaterial: both rationalizations too often lead to bad policy and failure.

In the present circumstances, I believe that government actions to reduce its own costs; lower taxes; and increase the flexibility of labor markets will produce a quicker recovery than added government spending.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:38 pm
I'm very much surprised to see you disavow the right wing, but i won't belabor the point. In recent political history, however, there is a stark contrast between the behavior of a Republican Congress under Clinton and what was essentially the same Congress after Bush was inaugurated.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:43 pm
@georgeob1,
But your big brush is also wrong-headed. Properly developed and implemented stimulus spending is the key for our economic recovery. We all know what happens when legislators want favors attached to any legislation that works itself through congress. That's a forever problem, but it doesn't negate the fact that stimulus spending is needed to jump-start our economy. We just can't sit back and watch more people lose their jobs and homes.

You as a business owner should know that higher employment results in more business for you - and everybody else. It also increases our tax base to pay down our debt - "if" congress doesn't end up spending more than what they take in.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:05 pm
@georgeob1,
There's no evidence at all that permanently lowering tax rates leads to recovery in times like this.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:10 pm
@Setanta,
I don't "disavow" the right wing: I just don't represent it and don't restrict myself to labels.

That all politicians are self-serving and hypocritical is axiomatic. That alone is not a reason to choose among them (tho occasionally one side or the other does fall to unusually low levels of venality).

It is also true that our situation today is different in some fundamental respects from that of a decade ago. We face greater international economic competition, and, with a higher national debt, no longer have so much latitude to address short-term problems by adding to it.

I also think that Cicerone and other defenders of the administration fail to address the many contradictions in the economic & social policies of the current administration. Many of the remedies they are advancing will make the fundamental challenges we face far worse.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

There's no evidence at all that permanently lowering tax rates leads to recovery in times like this.

Cycloptichorn


None ! Not any? Do you really mean that?

Perhaps you could offer some evidence suggesting that the forthcoming increase in tax rates will speed the recovery.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:28 pm
@georgeob1,
I would never make such a sweeping claim that "permanently lowering taxes leads to recovery" at times like this. It should be targeted lowering of taxes as Obama has done with his stimulus plan, and plan to do with those making less than $250,000. It makes every sense to have those who's ability to help pay for our past and current spending do so. Increasing the debt is unfair to our children.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 02:12 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

There's no evidence at all that permanently lowering tax rates leads to recovery in times like this.

Cycloptichorn


None ! Not any? Do you really mean that?

Perhaps you could offer some evidence suggesting that the forthcoming increase in tax rates will speed the recovery.


I could, but first I would have to claim that such a thing was true; which, you may note, I didn't do.

The truth is that marginal tax rates have little to nothing to do with either recovery or economic growth in general. Those who assert they do have never been able to provide evidence that this is true; and there has been no greater growth (other than the national debt) under Reaganite, lower-tax models than there was in decades previous to that.

I would also point out that majorities of Americans across several polls agree that taxes on the top earners should go up. It isn't an unpopular position in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 11:49 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Desperation is always sad.
0 Replies
 
 

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