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Can we do anything of our own free will?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:05 am
@Arjuna,
Well...dreaming or not we can´t but meet ourselves...there´s nowhere else to go !
Nothingness is to far away...he he he ! Wink
Thanks Arjuna !
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:39 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
The potential is expressed through the medium.

Volts=Current x Resistance

The expression meets the potential through the medium. Is that what you mean?

The potential and the expression were never separate. They're one thing. Yea, I know they have to be. But there can't be a meeting unless they're also separate.

The separation creates awareness. The separation is where the idea of freedom comes from. Will is the potential. Free Will means both... separation and unity. There couldn't be one without the other. Without the separation there would be no awareness.

The self can be evacuated down to pure awareness, but the mind goes no further. There's no where else to go.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:44 am
@Arjuna,
Yeap !!! Cool
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 11:14 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Yeap !!! Cool
Cool. Adios, amigo. (Sorry, don't know Portuguese) Cool
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 11:23 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
But our knowing is the product of our biology and environment. If we grow up in the US where we learn English to communicate, and our parents teach us what they believe we must know, that is limiting to our knowledge base. Free will in its truest form must include knowledge of the world in order for us to make free will decisions that are based on all of humanity - not just what we learn as truth in the US. Language, as most of us know, does not cover all the ideas of humanity that can be expressed by other languages, and that includes all the sciences. It limits our ability to comprehend the universe.

We have free will limitations based on where and how we live.
Twnf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 01:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I love this!
Quote:
The only "freedom" that we can expect is to meet our own nature in the World...

and this!
Quote:
...We don´t decide. We are decided !

Where we part company is in who or what we see as doing the deciding. I would agree that the deciding proceeds according to law(s). But I don't see the need to bring God into it. To me this seems to imply some sort of inherent intention in the universe. I would rather stick to what we can infer from the empirical evidence as put forward in The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 03:39 pm
@Twnf,
I have said this many times, but it keeps raising misunderstanding and confusion. Well, again...my conception of "God" it is very natural...God is the World! So I guess, we afterall, may agree on that to. Wink
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 03:41 pm
@Arjuna,
Adeus (Adios) Arjuna ! Ate logo. (asta luego)(see you later)
0 Replies
 
Twnf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 06:15 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Great! That "G" word is a loaded term. We need a better word.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 09:37 pm
@Twnf,
Yeah, I noticed...I have been "bugged" about it several times.
Sometimes I use the "God" term instead of just Nature as expected out of looking into it, the Universe, in a trans-temporal way, that´s why.
Being or God, fits the bill in that strict sense.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

But our knowing is the product of our biology and environment. If we grow up in the US where we learn English to communicate, and our parents teach us what they believe we must know, that is limiting to our knowledge base. Free will in its truest form must include knowledge of the world in order for us to make free will decisions that are based on all of humanity - not just what we learn as truth in the US. Language, as most of us know, does not cover all the ideas of humanity that can be expressed by other languages, and that includes all the sciences. It limits our ability to comprehend the universe.

We have free will limitations based on where and how we live.


Hi !

1 - Unfortunately although, as you pointed out, language changes, the talk, is very much the same...I which Humanity was a bit more creative.

2 - Knowledge of the World, does not necessarily have to imply free will...on the contrary, my will would be free if not to match anything in this Universe.
Freedom would be to create a new set of rules...

3 - Knowledge on Truth, is "Death" ! (when you know, you rest !) (Joke!...or you rest anyway and get to learn by osmoses...Joke!)
(maybe that was what Nietzsche meant after all, who knows...I could teach him a thing or two I guess. Mr. Green )

Best regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
FA wrote:
Quote:
1 - Unfortunately although, as you pointed out, language changes, the talk, is very much the same...I which Humanity was a bit more creative.

Talk is the same, but the meaning is not. In language, there are meanings and context in which another person with a different language may not understand. Even in our own language, words change meanings over time.

FA wrote:
Quote:
2 - Knowledge of the World, does not necessarily have to imply free will...on the contrary, my will would be free if not to match anything in this Universe.
Freedom would be to create a new set of rules...

Knowledge of the world is the only context in which we can understand concepts. A person living in the jungles of Africa has a much different free will than an individual living in the middle of New York City. A person who has plenty to eat every day has a different concept of food than a person who is barely sustained. Free will is different for both individuals. However, understanding the limits of all conditions on this planet, we begin to understand about free will and choices.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You can think on a donkey, a cart, or on a car, depending on when and where you live...but meaning, is the same, the way you express it may not be.

A person on the jungle as exactly the same freedoms and limitations that you have, although it lives in a different background of choices...You get the TV , he gets the river...you get space maths and doctors, he gets tracking, forest and herbs knowledge....you live up a speedy life with lots of content and less detail, he has detail on everything he knows...There´s more Equilibrium in Life then meets the eye my friend !...
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:10 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
A person on the jungle has exactly the same freedoms and limitations that you have, although it lives in a different background of choices...You get the TV , he gets the river...you get space maths and doctors, he gets tracking, forest and herbs knowledge....you live up a speedy life with lots of content and less detail, he has detail on everything he knows...


Nonsense. A person in the jungle may have freedoms, but they are not the same as the freedoms of a city dweller. The options available to her, whichever "her" you choose, are almost entirely different.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
You can think on a donkey, a cart, or on a car, depending on when and where you live...but meaning, is the same, the way you express it may not be.


You can think on a donkey, a cart, or in a car, and even on on a car pulled by a donkey as a cart; but in each situation the meaning of things will appear quite differently. Just ask the three different people traveling as you have described the same question about a single event. i have little doubt that they would give three different interpretations of said question and event.

The fact is that the more circumstances differ the more the expressions of those circumstances differ, and the more individual meanings differentiate themselves. And by the same token, the more freedom one has at one's disposal, the more meanings are accessible to one.
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:14 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna wrote:

Razzleg wrote:

Poop...a mistype led me to post a foreshortened version of my response. Here is the full version. I apoligise for the mistake.
Hi. I caught the "foreshortened." Are you an artist?


i wanted to be one, once. But a minor talent faced with major frustration managed to quell that small concern.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:51 am
@Razzleg,
Your opinion is welcome.
See you around Raz ! Wink
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:23 am
@Razzleg,
Razzleg, Excellent! Some people are unable to conceptualize the realities of the different worlds people live in. The Masai people drink the blood of cows for their protein, while the consumer in developed countries can have many choices to get their protein. Why people can't see the difference is a mystery.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
oh, pleeeeease !...give me a break.
Raw stake and chips is the favourite dish around...why are people to compartmentalize everything instead of building conceptual bridges between what obviously is similar upon a clever more insightful look on it ?
Similar functions should be analysed for what they are, and not for the names that we give them...no wonder people this days get lost in formal concept, in the computer age people don´t know what to make of it...information and knowledge are two different things just as meaning and discourse are.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:50 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You got the "brake."
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 11:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
Lol...is corrected now. Laughing
Anything else more productive to comment upon ?
0 Replies
 
 

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