8
   

Can we do anything of our own free will?

 
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 03:32 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

The answer is yes, and the argument is:

1. To do something of one's own free will is to do it without being compelled to do it.
2. We sometimes do things, we are not compelled to do.

Therefore, 3. we sometime do things of our own free will.

Is there some objection to this argument?



How can I be certain that you were not compelled to write the post by some force of which we are unaware?
After all, mankind remained unaware of the oxygen molecules racing through our blood stream for the greater portion of human existence.

I can give you examples. I was not compelled to write this post, but I did it. So writing this post is something I did without being compelled to do it.
My objection is that #2 is not entirely true.
It assumes that what we believe to be true is knowledge.

The knowledge we have, however, tells us that we sometimes do things which we believe we are not compelled to do.

I see no evidence whatsover, provided by your argument, to tell me that belief is either true or false.

Can you show me that #2 is anything other than opinion, or belief?


0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 04:50 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

The answer is yes, and the argument is:

1. To do something of one's own free will is to do it without being compelled to do it.
2. We sometimes do things, we are not compelled to do.

Therefore, 3. we sometime do things of our own free will.

Is there some objection to this argument?



I can give you examples. I was not compelled to write this post, but I did it. So writing this post is something I did without being compelled to do it.
My objection is that #2 is not entirely true.
It assumes that what we believe to be true is knowledge.

The knowledge we have, however, tells us that we sometimes do things which we believe we are not compelled to do.

I see no evidence whatsover, provided by your argument, to tell me that belief is either true or false.

Can you show me that #2 is anything other than opinion, or belief?




Do you think I was lying when I said I was not compelled to write this post? Believe me, I did write the post because I wanted to. No one forced me to do it. I know that no one forced me to do it. Why would you think I do not?
Alrenous
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 08:12 pm
@joefromchicago,
Hey Joe, I have a question.

Do you think we can assume that kennethamy is ignoring us, at this point? I'd like to know for future reference.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 08:27 pm
@Alrenous,
Alrenous wrote:

Hey Joe, I have a question.

Do you think we can assume that kennethamy is ignoring us, at this point? I'd like to know for future reference.


I think you may just mean saying thing that you don't understand. I suppose that fish may believe they are being ignored by people who comment on them.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:26 pm
@Alrenous,
Alrenous wrote:

Hey Joe, I have a question.

Do you think we can assume that kennethamy is ignoring us, at this point? I'd like to know for future reference.

Does it really matter?
Alrenous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 07:48 am
@kennethamy,
People ignore other people on the internet for many reasons. Since these are irrelevant to my purposes, I don't think about them.
0 Replies
 
Alrenous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 07:50 am
@joefromchicago,
I would like to know because it's nice to have a clear trigger for putting the discussion from my mind. Clearing up my RAM, you might say. Also saving time not having to check back.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:22 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

The answer is yes, and the argument is:

1. To do something of one's own free will is to do it without being compelled to do it.
2. We sometimes do things, we are not compelled to do.

Therefore, 3. we sometime do things of our own free will.

Is there some objection to this argument?



I can give you examples. I was not compelled to write this post, but I did it. So writing this post is something I did without being compelled to do it.
My objection is that #2 is not entirely true.
It assumes that what we believe to be true is knowledge.

The knowledge we have, however, tells us that we sometimes do things which we believe we are not compelled to do.

I see no evidence whatsover, provided by your argument, to tell me that belief is either true or false.

Can you show me that #2 is anything other than opinion, or belief?




Do you think I was lying when I said I was not compelled to write this post? Believe me, I did write the post because I wanted to. No one forced me to do it. I know that no one forced me to do it. Why would you think I do not?


Certainly I believe that you believe you where not compelled to write the post.
What confuses me is why you think compulsion has anything to do with the existence of freewill.
Freewill is a force, which exists just as our physical strength exists. The fact that I cannot lift 500 lbs does not mean I have no strength.

Awareness plays such a larger role than compulsion.
I become aware that a ringing phone compels me to answer it, therefore I intend to answer the phone of my own freewill.

Freewill does not necessitate physical action to exist.
Nor does it require to be successful to exist.
kennethamy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:33 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

The answer is yes, and the argument is:

1. To do something of one's own free will is to do it without being compelled to do it.
2. We sometimes do things, we are not compelled to do.

Therefore, 3. we sometime do things of our own free will.

Is there some objection to this argument?



I can give you examples. I was not compelled to write this post, but I did it. So writing this post is something I did without being compelled to do it.
My objection is that #2 is not entirely true.
It assumes that what we believe to be true is knowledge.

The knowledge we have, however, tells us that we sometimes do things which we believe we are not compelled to do.

I see no evidence whatsover, provided by your argument, to tell me that belief is either true or false.

Can you show me that #2 is anything other than opinion, or belief?




If there is no reason to think that what I do is compelled, but you claim it is compelled, then unless you can produce some reason to believe that what I do is compelled, I my belief that I was not compelled is more reasonable than your assertion that I am compelled. That is the best I can offer you. And I think it is good enough. I don't have to prove I am not compelled, since you are the one who says I am. It is therefore, up to you to back up your clam, not up to me to refute yours. That is how logic works.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 03:00 pm
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


What confuses me is why you think compulsion has anything to do with the existence of freewill.



Because when I ask a person whether he did something of his own free will, as for instance, whether he married his wife of his own free will, and he says he did, then I would understand him as denying that he was compelled to marry his wife. What would you understand him as saying?
wayne
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 10:04 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


What confuses me is why you think compulsion has anything to do with the existence of freewill.



Because when I ask a person whether he did something of his own free will, as for instance, whether he married his wife of his own free will, and he says he did, then I would understand him as denying that he was compelled to marry his wife. What would you understand him as saying?


He may very well have been compelled to marry his wife, and decided to marry her anyway. Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?
We are compelled to do many things which we do not do. Some people don't pay their taxes, in spite of being compelled to do so. Of course, they are generally then forced to do so.
I myself pay my taxes of my own freewill, in spite of being compelled to do so, I am aware that our infrastructure requires my contribution.

Even when we are compelled to do something, we may do it of our own freewill, awareness and intent have far more to do with it than compulsion.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:01 am
@wayne,
To take awareness and intent to the extreme of justifying the term free is simple to negate the limitations and the degree or scope in which this very same awareness and intent exist, hence to take out its defined form and context and trading it for infinity...No one is infinitely aware ! No one can be the "other" !

Free Will has a very specific meaning...one could go further to simply say, it has a very limited context based on the everyday common human experience of life.

Free Will is a self centred pretension of human condition...

The Goals that we intent and achieve are intended and achieved up to a certain degree but hardly are they worn out in our perception or circumscribed to our little cosmogony...

In fact Neuroscience is becoming ever more aware everyday now on the limitations of our decision making, reasoning and perception...70% of our acts are not even rationally intended, and those which are hardly could we say that they are free, not biased our influenced by our pulsions compulsions, or pure subjectivity.

Free according to our will ? or willed according to our lack of freedom ?
Hence the right question !

Free is a to vast term, so abstract and extreme sided to actually have any real meaning in Philosophy ! Free is pure Utopia ! Naturally a force of expression, a Metaphor !
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:14 am
@wayne,
wayne wrote:


Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?



You are kidding- I hope. The point isn't whether we are compelled to do many of the things we do. The point is that we are not compelled to do some of the things we do. Those who say there is no free will are saying that we are compelled to do everything we do. Is that your view. For instance, is it your view that you are compelled to post every post you have posted?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:20 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?



You are kidding- I hope. The point isn't whether we are compelled to do many of the things we do. The point is that we are not compelled to do some of the things we do. Those who say there is no free will are saying that we are compelled to do everything we do. Is that your view. For instance, is it your view that you are compelled to post every post you have posted?


In fact we are...any expert on the matter of human mind could say so. (If only you knew better...)
Whatever we do we do it out of a emotional drive...we are always compelled towards action !!!

Out of your on emotional stubbornness you simply are compelled to ignore the argument !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:38 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Pulsion
(latin pulsio, action de pousser, pellere, pulsum, traduction de l'allemand Trieb). La théorie des pulsions, Amour et Faim, Vie(Eros) et Mort(Thanatos) est un concept fondamental de la psychanalyse. La pulsion est définie par Freud comme une poussée ponctuelle et motrice qui vise à une satisfaction et est le moyen initial de cette satisfaction. Son étude permet de rendre compte des modalités du rapport à l'objet et de la recherche de la satisfaction.


Link: http://thesaurus.babylon.com/pulsion

Even the term "compulsion" does not only apply to the direct externally forced conditioning...in fact as described above one just has to go further back to see its origin in the Latin...

Quote:
Noun

compulsion (plural compulsions)

1. An irrational need to perform some action, often despite negative consequences.

During the basketball game, I had a sudden compulsion to have a smoke.

2. The use of authority, influence, or other power to force (compel) a person or persons to act.
3. The lawful use of violence (i.e. by the administration).


Link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compulsion
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:46 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?



You are kidding- I hope. The point isn't whether we are compelled to do many of the things we do. The point is that we are not compelled to do some of the things we do. Those who say there is no free will are saying that we are compelled to do everything we do. Is that your view. For instance, is it your view that you are compelled to post every post you have posted?


I do not believe that I am compelled to post, but, given my limited awareness, I may be compelled by some force of which I am not aware.

I think it is obvious we have freewill, in the same limited sense that we have physical strength.
Those who say we are compelled to do everything we do are ignoring the fact that we may be aware that the ringing phone compels us to answer it, yet we may then intend to answer it of our own freewill, in spite of being compelled to do so.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:50 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
when did I say anyone was infinitly aware? In fact I have said the opposite.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:06 pm
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?



You are kidding- I hope. The point isn't whether we are compelled to do many of the things we do. The point is that we are not compelled to do some of the things we do. Those who say there is no free will are saying that we are compelled to do everything we do. Is that your view. For instance, is it your view that you are compelled to post every post you have posted?


I do not believe that I am compelled to post, but, given my limited awareness, I may be compelled by some force of which I am not aware.

I think it is obvious we have freewill, in the same limited sense that we have physical strength.
Those who say we are compelled to do everything we do are ignoring the fact that we may be aware that the ringing phone compels us to answer it, yet we may then intend to answer it of our own freewill, in spite of being compelled to do so.


If there is no evidence that you are compelled to post, then although you might be compelled to post, it is not true that you may be compelled to post. It is true only that you might be compelled to post. But that you might be compelled to post is no reason to think that you are compelled to post. The question is whether you are compelled to post. Are you. Have you any reason to suppose you are? Apparently not.

I think it is obvious that we do have free will because I think it is obvious that we sometimes do things we are not compelled to do, but because we want to do them. Isn't that what is meant by doing things of one's own free will? If not, have you any other suggestion as to what might be meant by it?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:10 pm
@wayne,
wayne wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

wayne wrote:


Why would anyone marry if they were not compelled to do so?



You are kidding- I hope. The point isn't whether we are compelled to do many of the things we do. The point is that we are not compelled to do some of the things we do. Those who say there is no free will are saying that we are compelled to do everything we do. Is that your view. For instance, is it your view that you are compelled to post every post you have posted?


I do not believe that I am compelled to post, but, given my limited awareness, I may be compelled by some force of which I am not aware.

I think it is obvious we have freewill, in the same limited sense that we have physical strength.
Those who say we are compelled to do everything we do are ignoring the fact that we may be aware that the ringing phone compels us to answer it, yet we may then intend to answer it of our own freewill, in spite of being compelled to do so.


And just what in fact motivates you to not have an autistic reaction and simply ignore that the phone ring at all ? And to ignore I mean to not even listen the phone...

Deciding above all imply´s an emotional drive towards action, being that action to ignore the phone that you actually heard ringing, or to pick it up...plus, that decision well before becoming rationalized is constrained by your primary responses from your nervous system, your instinctive drives and mood, and later on rationalized accordingly...that is the bottom line.

Or what do you think it means to have such and such Nature ?
People don´t even realize what it means to be, to have an Identity, a specific nature ...and is not about freedom. Identity is about the opposite !

In such state of confusion marches on philosophy these days...no wonder is sinking...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:10 pm
@wayne,
You did n´t...it was my remark. To be aware in the case of freedom of choice, implies to be totally aware...
 

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