17
   

What Do You Need To Be Free?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Aug, 2010 11:02 pm
@William,
Hi William !
Perfect Equilibrium will always be impossible to achieve in any field in this Universe. Slavery is one of its sad (Darwinian) consequences...and there are of course many types of slavery to...but such is the price of diversity as you well know.
I agree with you when you question how it should be...And I agree in the sense that if we cannot get a definite cure two the Laws that prevail in this World, because the cure would kill the patient...well, at the very least we can choose at what level are we up to live with them...this meaning, do we walk to a more abstract and civilized form of conflict and dominance, or do we keep ourselves in an out of control piling savagery that will ultimately lead to our fall and redundant failure as a species ?

Post Scriptum - (I just can´t get why you were given thumbs down on this one...what is there to disagree ?)

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 04:31 am
@GoshisDead,
Caroline wrote:
To be free and not enslaved is the only way to live, we are free to be ourselves and express ourselves without fear.
To be enslaved is like taking a butterfly and putting it in a box, it's not free to fly and be a butterfly.
GoshisDead wrote:
Are we really free to express ourselves without fear?
No; if u enter a liquor store or a gas station or a private house and announce a robbery
u coud get SHOT, causing possibly severe, permanent personal injuries, including death.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 05:28 am
@Telamon,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Telamon wrote:
Your definition of freedom is different than mine apparently. Your so called “freedom”, is restricted within the confines of the laws you and your piers have set, thusly limiting your freedom, a paradox in and of itself.
No; it is laissez faire ` NON-interference.

(Incidentally, please note that a pier is a pillar or a post.)

David
Telamon wrote:
laissez faire:
1. the theory or system of government that upholds the autonomous character of the economic order,
believing that government should intervene as little as possible in the direction of economic affairs.
2. the practice or doctrine of noninterference in the affairs of others, esp. with reference to individual conduct or freedom of action.


By definition one, said government upholds economic order with little intervention,
but intervention none the less. [In theory, little intervention can be ZERO]
Therein I am denied full uninhibited freedom to do as I wish.

By definition two, setting a doctrine of noninterference in the affairs of others,
I am unable to act on anything that might affect others. Pretty strait forward in limiting me,
thusly limiting freedom to do whatever I choices I might make.
CORRECT. The doctrine of Laissez faire does NOT entitle u to dominate the rest of the world.
I don 't speak French, but I have been led to believe that
it means "hands off".






Telamon wrote:
A government, of any kind, cannot be a non-interference government by definition alone; “the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration: Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.”

You obviously refuse to think beyond your own narrow thought process, and fail to understand the point being conveyed.
Lines of latitude and longitude do not exist, except as humen have defined them.
In the spirit of John Locke, let us observe that human existence
ante-dates the existence of government and that at some time
humen lived in a State of Nature, when thay decided to unite
(presumably to defend themselves from the raids of aliens).
When thay created a government, doing so by agreement among
themselves, the imaginary creature (like lines of latitude n longitude)
had ONLY the jurisdiction with which the citizens who agreed to it
invested it; nothing more. Any additional authority it took only by foul,
deceptive USURPATION, fraudulently faking
that it had such authority.

THEREFORE, it is NOT so much that we have GIVEN ourselves
freedom, so much as it is that we refused to surrender it up
in the first place, to the damned creature (government)
that we invented.

AS INDIVIDUALS, we r the creators of government;
i.e., we stand in the shoes of our Forefathers
who created the damned thing. We did NOT create it
because we desired to become slaves.
Because there is a relationship of adversity between the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN
and the fictional, imaginary creation, "government", it will serve our purposes well,
in terms of preserving our personal liberty,
to look upon our employee, government, as an object of contempt and loathing.





Telamon wrote:
(Incidentally, please note underlining and bolding words can come across as both arrogant and insulting more often than not, when used in a public forum.)
Both r useful and helpful in expressing ideas; therefore, I will continue to employ them.

Everyone else can too, if thay wanna. That will not offend me.





David
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2010 04:54 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Are you even trying to understand my point, or just breezing past everything I post to get back to your circular logic?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

CORRECT. The doctrine of Laissez faire does NOT entitle u to dominate the rest of the world.
I don 't speak French, but I have been led to believe that
it means "hands off".

-Therein I am not free to do anything I choose, case and point…

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Lines of latitude and longitude do not exist, except as humen have defined them.

-No different than saying any measurement system does not exist, except as Man has defined them, relevance? I am not disputing that Man created government.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

When thay created a government, doing so by agreement among
themselves, the imaginary creature (like lines of latitude n longitude)
had ONLY the jurisdiction with which the citizens who agreed to it
invested it; nothing more.

~no ****~

OmSigDAVID wrote:

AS INDIVIDUALS, we r the creators of government;
i.e., we stand in the shoes of our Forefathers
who created the damned thing. We did NOT create it
because we desired to become slaves.

~see previous retort~

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Because there is a relationship of adversity between the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN
and the fictional, imaginary creation, "government", it will serve our purposes well,
in terms of preserving our personal liberty,
to look upon our employee, government, as an object of contempt and loathing.

Cooperation to come together and create any government is a compromise, restricting personal freedoms for the “greater good”. Granted, compromise can appear to be ‘freedom” to an extent, but your so called “freedom” is restricted within the confines of the laws you and your society have set, a paradox in and of itself. Yes it will protect some freedoms, but at the cost of others. The point is, you are not completely free to do as you please.




failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2010 10:05 pm
We need something to be free? So our static state is one of bondage? Why assume such an axiom?

Why assume that effort must be applied to be free? Why not challenge this? What if we are putting effort into staying enslaved, and we are inherently free already?

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 06:30 am
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Hi William !
Perfect Equilibrium will always be impossible to achieve in any field in this Universe.


Agreed. It’s about the journey to reach that ideal leaving no one out of any equation. All or nothing comes to mind.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Slavery is one of its sad (Darwinian) consequences...and there are of course many types of slavery to...but such is the price of diversity as you well know.


Yes..............COSTS!! God damn costs when any measure of any economic structure is based on any commodity that is rare. That is absolute stupidity in motion and many are addicted to it. Imagine an Id card with something as simple as points or credits that can be issued to every human being so they can access any thing they need with out coercion to want more, better, faster, smaller, cheaper etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. The laws of attraction finely tuned. I believe in my heart no one will be greedy as we all know what animosity is. Yes, we are in a predicament to say the least.

Star Trek always comes to mind in that they didn’t use money and the fluidity of all those aboard that ship without bias or bigotry with one benevolent captain guiding not commanding in what can be said in a customary sense. Each and every one had their areas of expertise functioning together as one. NO FRICTION. Any one out of sync stood out and was summarily dealt with. That can be. It most assuredly CAN BE. No greed or imposition to gather the innocent and naive to any side creating separation and conflict.

People will do what they can do and must have the freedom to do what they can. It is innate in all of us to participate. That is what will keep us going.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
I agree with you when you question how it should be...And I agree in the sense that if we cannot get a definite cure to the Laws that prevail in this World, because the cure would kill the patient...well, at the very least we can choose at what level are we up to live with them...this meaning, do we walk to a more abstract and civilized form of conflict and dominance, or do we keep ourselves in an out of control piling savagery that will ultimately lead to our fall and redundant failure as a species ?


I am having a bit of difficulty in understanding what you are offering here. “Kill the patient”? “Civilized form of conflict and dominance”?
Are you thinking of Nietzsche? What can be civilized when trying to find something good in any master / slave relationship when all would be more than willing to participate if compensation was not based on anything rare. We have never given that a chance to work and that there is not evidence any where that says it will not work. If we just gave it a shot then I think all would be amazed at how so very fluid we can be if all were free and so giving. We would want for nothing. Yes that is a dream that can come true.

Yes, in the past we knew no better and commodities and ownership would be common place. We are not that now. We do know better and there is no excuse or rationalization the can suffice to argue the point if all were duly free as it can be understood now that is the way it was meant to be all along. Anyone contrary to that natural and universal paradigm would wave red flags all over the place. Ha!

Master / slave? How about benevolent guide and student!?

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Post Scriptum - (I just cańt get why you were given thumbs down on this one...what is there to disagree ?)


? Where was the thumbs down?

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
[/quote]

Thank you.

William
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Aug, 2010 02:42 pm
@Telamon,
Your FILTHY "previous retort" reflects upon and represents the mind that issued it.

I reject that abuse of language. I sentence u to 30 days on Ignore.
Your sentence will expire on Sept. 27th, 2010. Good bye.





David
Telamon
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Aug, 2010 07:19 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Your FILTHY "previous retort" reflects upon and represents the mind that issued it.

I reject that abuse of language. I sentence u to 30 days on Ignore.
Your sentence will expire on Sept. 27th, 2010. Good bye.
David

It always flabbergasted me how offended people get by simple words…
An abuse of language would be the continuous insulting manner in which you use your words, not the words themselves.

After your 30 days maybe you will come down off your high-horse, grow up a little, and stop talking down to everyone insisting your views are absolute.
0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Aug, 2010 06:14 am
David you said:

“Because there is a relationship of adversity between the individual citizen and the fictional, imaginary creation, “government”, it will serve our purposes well in terms of preserving our personal liberty, to look upon our employee, government, as an object of contempt and loathing.”

Forgive me David but the above statement made no sense to me. “fictional, imaginary creation”? “our purposes”? “our employee”; you mean the government is OUR employee? You have got to be kidding! I have tried to talk to “that employee of mine” and they aren’t talking to me.

I am trying to get a question answered: Why any veteran should be homeless. Can you, living in the land of the free, answer that question?

David you say you are a trial attorney, huh! Retired? Public or private? State, federal, what? Defense or offense? A matter of laws? Whose laws? Like the one that created legalized abortions? Those people that created THAT LAW saying that was ok for it’s citizens to do?

Don’t kid yourself my friend; at that time the majority of citizens would have said “go to hell” if it were left of to them to ok that law.

Think of the word “government” itself. To rule, control, govern the lives of others as if they are all morons and can’t do anything themselves. What a crock if that is what government is. Perhaps we need a new word, say “GUIDEMENT”. Like, lead by example. Barney Frank, what an example, huh! Ted Kennedy and his insignificant incident at Chappaquiddick? My what discretion money will buy. It’s amazing what a group of attorneys can do when they put there heads together. Here, read this about one such attorney:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident

Yes I know that will be difficult when morality is considered a “politically incorrect” word. A people who control a people who ignore any attempt to define morality must demand immorality from those very same people. Morality is nothing more than helping others more than you “help yourself”. Just how deep are those pockets when politicians do that. Help themselves. Pork barrel spending comes to mind. Damn !!!!

“Government Official”? Does that even sound like a title that an employee would use to it’s employer? Ha! Fat chance. Official what? Sycophant to power!?

Anytime money is involve in any transaction you will find “sticky fingers”. Ha! Big time, and big time government officials have the stickiest of all. Most of them are attorneys too. Imagine that. Check out there homes, their automobiles, their chauffeurs, limos, their individual carbon footprint. Now check out their employers’ same. LOL!!! What an hilarious joke.

Now when you think of freedom and any state think of one state and one union all being free to do what comes naturally to each and every one of them. No bureaucracy, no red tape, no confusion with no value on any rare commodity. Of course advertising entrapment would have to go too. Of course that would be an infringement of the first amendment, huh? What a paradox rich attorneys have created, damn! The more chaotic, the better. Those poor paralegals and what they have to do.

Just using as needed for every individual on this earth. Then you will be free my friend to do what you can do and not a pawn of power under the thumb of those who sequester themselves behind closed doors opening them to anyone who will “kiss their ass”.

Now please don’t come up with dramatic analogies such as depicted on television or any controlled media to prove your stance. Remember those are just programs and so dramatic to gather attention making mountains out of molehills. A ploy that has always be used by power to make the insignificant significant. Like it is every woman’s right to kill their unborn by feminist who would never get close enough to a man to get pregnant in the first place.

We are a long way from being free and yes a benevolent dictator is sorely needed. But instead, to be more useful, a benevolent guide would be better, who does carry a big stick; a big stick of wisdom and truth. Now I’d vote for that guy. In a heartbeat. He who speaks the truth needs no army to defend them.

William
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 08:09 am
@William,
I don 't mean to ignore u,
but I 'm preparing to fly out to Denver in a few hours
(unless I cancel because of the hurricane).

I can get back to u in about a week.





David
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2010 09:39 pm
@William,
I’ve already tried explaining the definition of “government” to our dear friend David here, but he has this knack of ignoring logic and pardon my lack of a better word, “common sense”. I think you will get a more cognitive conversation from a rock.

As for your last line, “We are a long way from being free and yes a benevolent dictator is sorely needed. But instead, to be more useful, a benevolent guide would be better, who does carry a big stick; a big stick of wisdom and truth. Now I’d vote for that guy. In a heartbeat. He who speaks the truth needs no army to defend them.” I agree, but said dictator should include an iron fist and stomach to get the job done and not "tip-toe" around things scared of what some people might think. Too many people have too many useless opinions, in my opinion.
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:29 am
@Telamon,
Telamon wrote:

I’ve already tried explaining the definition of “government” to our dear friend David here, but he has this knack of ignoring logic and pardon my lack of a better word, “common sense”. I think you will get a more cognitive conversation from a rock.

As for your last line, “We are a long way from being free and yes a benevolent dictator is sorely needed. But instead, to be more useful, a benevolent guide would be better, who does carry a big stick; a big stick of wisdom and truth. Now I’d vote for that guy. In a heartbeat. He who speaks the truth needs no army to defend them.”

I agree, but said dictator should include an iron fist and stomach to get the job done and not "tip-toe" around things scared of what some people might think. Too many people have too many useless opinions, in my opinion.


Iron Fist? No, that's been done and ended in war and goes back to a Roman Empire" that never fell. A house divided will not stand and that is exactly what this country has. A day will come when one will be our guide who is not a puppet on a string trying to please those "haves" with money to burn, who are responsible for putting the esthetically attractive in office to satisfy special interest agendas.

Today, hopefully, with computer profiling, we will find that one. who will be that eye at the top of the pyramid who understands what freedom is and what it can do once all are that.

william

0 Replies
 
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2010 04:37 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

I don 't mean to ignore u,
but I 'm preparing to fly out to Denver in a few hours
(unless I cancel because of the hurricane).
I can get back to u in about a week.
David


Thanks,

William
Telamon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:32 pm
@William,
That sure is one loooong week...
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:09 pm
@William,
William wrote:

What Do You Need To Be Free?

Quote:
For all of you freedom loving individuals, please; tell me what it is that you think freedom is? If you are and others are, please tell me why you think you are and another is not.


enviroment and discipline

questioning

Quote:
Thanks for your cooperation. BTW do you think cooperation has anything to do with everyone being free?

William


understanding

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:17 pm
@William,
William, From me personal experience, I would say that my last bus ride out of Walker AFB in New Mexico after my discharge from the US Air Force after four years was when I really felt free. In the service, you are always under the umbrella of the military, and you just can't walk out and quit.

Yeah, I still remember vividly my last bus ride out of Walker.
0 Replies
 
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:26 pm
Just don't fence me in, don't put me in a cage. Let me grow wings, and fly

Oh, give me a home
where the buffalo roam
and the deer and the antelope play
where seldom is heard
a disparaging word
and the skies are not cloudy all day

That's of course after sailing my vessel 'til the river runs dry. Freedom don't come free.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:34 pm
@Pemerson,
Pemerson wrote:

Just don't fence me in, don't put me in a cage. Let me grow wings, and fly

Oh, give me a home
where the buffalo roam
and the deer and the antelope play
where seldom is heard
a disparaging word
and the skies are not cloudy all day

That's of course after sailing my vessel 'til the river runs dry. Freedom don't come free.


physical freedom

what of freedom of thought ?
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 11:14 pm
@north,
north wrote:

Pemerson wrote:

Just don't fence me in, don't put me in a cage. Let me grow wings, and fly

Oh, give me a home
where the buffalo roam
and the deer and the antelope play
where seldom is heard
a disparaging word
and the skies are not cloudy all day

That's of course after sailing my vessel 'til the river runs dry. Freedom don't come free.


physical freedom

what of freedom of thought ?


But I have freedom of thought. Why wouldn't I, or you? I never allowed any mere person tell me how I should think about a thing. Just give me the facts...the facts, that's all. I'll think about them as I see it, experience it.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Oct, 2010 11:28 pm
@Pemerson,
Pemerson wrote:

north wrote:

Pemerson wrote:

Just don't fence me in, don't put me in a cage. Let me grow wings, and fly

Oh, give me a home
where the buffalo roam
and the deer and the antelope play
where seldom is heard
a disparaging word
and the skies are not cloudy all day

That's of course after sailing my vessel 'til the river runs dry. Freedom don't come free.


physical freedom

what of freedom of thought ?


But I have freedom of thought. Why wouldn't I, or you? I never allowed any mere person tell me how I should think about a thing. Just give me the facts...the facts, that's all. I'll think about them as I see it, experience it.


good
0 Replies
 
 

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