31
   

Our planet is being destroyed, does anybody care?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 01:32 pm
@Arjuna,
Quote:
infinite appears as a side-effect of conceiving finitude?


In a word yes...circularity seams to be the fitting image for it.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 06:08 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
A circle has characteristics we learn by examining what's a priori.

The circle is made of an infinite number of points. If you mark an x through it, the circle has four parts. Four is finite. This same thing is true of all things. Everything is both finite and infinite.

Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:10 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna wrote:

A circle has characteristics we learn by examining what's a priori.

The circle is made of an infinite number of points. If you mark an x through it, the circle has four parts. Four is finite. This same thing is true of all things. Everything is both finite and infinite.



Not exactly so... Of infintes we can make no true statement, and have no true knowledge.... What we presume true of infinites is meaningless... But not all objects are infinite... They have meets and bounds like areas of land...And if it were not for some finite physical objects we could not say we know anything; and even that knowledge is limited and suspect...

My position as a moralist is in infinite moral forms... The end of my day is just like the beginning when it comes to moral knowledge because I can never say I know more than I presume true at one end or the other... Lucky for me that my patience is infinite as well...

If I may, let me suggest that it is not the things we know which are infinite, but our concepts of them...For example, we might say the number of cats in the world is strictly finite, but the concept of cats must describe every cat that was or will be, or could be imagined as fitting the concept... Every concept is open ended, without end, and the value of all forms is the same as with moral forms which is, that they are only as good as the good purpose they serve...They represent our knowledge, but also hold a place for our ignorance, which again, is infinite...
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:15 pm
@Arjuna,
Quote:
Everything is both finite and infinite.


Except for my patience, of course.
Fido
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:34 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Quote:
Everything is both finite and infinite.


Except for my patience, of course.

I wanted to become a tree surgeon, but I kept falling out of my patients..
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 10:31 pm
@Fido,
Just take a look at your own words... "fitting the concept"...how can you fit the infinite ?

EITHER THOUGHTS REFER TO THOUGH OBJECTS OR THOUGHTS REFER TO THINGS...

...in your own words thoughts would only refer to more thoughts thus rendering themselves in its own objects, as substance, all the substance there is...nevertheless though objects are objects !

You far give to much importance to the medium...that which conveys what exists...I personally could n´t care less with the description of final substance be it mind matter or information...nothing changes really...its ironic is n´t it ? Who is describing what, around where ? Who really objectify´s that which is indescribable ? I am looking for patterns while you in turn are the one trying to convey what is final substance to be...I often wish you could see the contradictions in which you fall so promptly...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 10:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Just take a look at your own words... "fitting the concept"...how can you fit the infinite ?

EITHER THOUGHTS REFER TO THOUGH OBJECTS OR THOUGHTS REFER TO THINGS...

...in your own words thoughts would only refer to more thoughts thus rendering themselves in its own objects, as substance, all the substance there is...nevertheless though objects are objects !

You far give to much importance to the medium...that which conveys what exists...I personally could n´t care less with the description of final substance be it mind matter or information...nothing changes really...its ironic is n´t it ? Who is describing what, around where ? Who really objectify´s that which is indescribable ? I am looking for patterns while you in turn are the one trying to convey what is final substance to be...I often wish you could see the contradictions in which you fall so promptly...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE

Part of every concept is what we know, and that is the part our version of reality must fit... Got a busy day planned and got to go... will get back with you...

First, I do not presume my reality to be free of contradictions... Infinity may be full of contradictions for all know....If a thing is indescribable it is because it is an infinite, but that is not to say there will not be patterns in it... Existence and reality are infinites and we see and seek out pattern... Pattern recognition is the key to our intelligence, and it is because when we recognize a pattern in reality we can learn to use that pattern or manipulat it... Good night...
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 11:15 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
I wanted to become a tree surgeon, but I kept falling out of my patients..

Laughing
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 11:22 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
I wanted to become a tree surgeon, but I kept falling out of my patients..
Thats a strange connection...as I was pushing plants out of my way in many a jungle I always wanted to become a bulldozer.....I could have been their killer and you could have been their svaiour.....I wonder what all this means ?
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 06:46 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
The word finite refers to separation. Without it there would be nothing intelligible. But this very intelligence... in it there is a pattern that includes the idea of the infinite... the unbounded... lack of separation.

So when I apprehend an object, I see that it has extension in space which I can't conceive of as finite (except relative to the object.) But even as space relates to the object... I conceive of space as infinitely divisible.

The pattern of intelligence contains contradiction... intelligence depends on contradiction. So whatever a thought refers to... it must be contradictory if it corresponds to the thought.

Thought is the thing that hops back and forth from one foot to the other. The thing referred to by thought... it is neither/both.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 07:44 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
I wanted to become a tree surgeon, but I kept falling out of my patients..
Thats a strange connection...as I was pushing plants out of my way in many a jungle I always wanted to become a bulldozer.....I could have been their killer and you could have been their svaiour.....I wonder what all this means ?
When I was working Iron, I used to say that iron was soft, and people are hard, since we bend it to our will, and not the reverse... The same is true of bulldozers, that they are kind, and people are cruel; and only when an operator sits at the controls can it become an impliment of destruction... Nothing is good or bad without us to make it so... The problem is in getting people to look up long enough from the process of living to see the direction they are taking their lives, which is some times over a cliff and to destruction...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 08:04 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna wrote:

The word finite refers to separation. Without it there would be nothing intelligible. But this very intelligence... in it there is a pattern that includes the idea of the infinite... the unbounded... lack of separation.

So when I apprehend an object, I see that it has extension in space which I can't conceive of as finite (except relative to the object.) But even as space relates to the object... I conceive of space as infinitely divisible.

The pattern of intelligence contains contradiction... intelligence depends on contradiction. So whatever a thought refers to... it must be contradictory if it corresponds to the thought.

Thought is the thing that hops back and forth from one foot to the other. The thing referred to by thought... it is neither/both.


That word FIN crops up in our language almost as much as form... Define, refine, finite, infinite... In my short spell at university, before my money ran out, I had a professor who several times told a story of two men on a train... One said, looking out the window: Do you see those Brown Cows??? The other said: I do, and they are brown, at least on this side... We apply some trust to all objects to say what they are on the far side, and to say reality does not change out of our sight, that is, to say the color of every cow is the same on both sides... Our problem is not with small physical objects, but with our forms themselves which if examined in detail are found to be infinite moral forms, and much of our lives are consumed with focus on these forms which can never be made finite or clear... In my world, which is the moral world, the world in which the physical world resides and makes sense, -nothing can be said to make sense or be true... For Example, what is truth if we should manage with our behavior to destroy the ability of the earth to support our lives and we die... What is truth if we should over populate to such an extent that we spiral into a dark age and know only war, disease, poverty and misery and that is our legacy??? Truth is a meaning that is only as meaning-ful as the good that comes out of it, and no good is coming out of our commonly accepted views of truth...

I don't need God as an infinite defined by infinite moral forms skuzzzing up the gears of reason with some huge greazy omni-hairballs to recognize the fix we are in short term in a finite sense... But, it is a mountain we must move... The economy which is destorying the environment is supported by the religion and both have a long history of respect in metaphysics and law... Great change is needed, but we hardly have the language and consideration for small changes...
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:16 am
@Fido,
Quote:
I used to say that iron was soft, and people are hard,
Another coincidence....I am very fond of a description of the early colonial days of sailing...wooden ships and iron men.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:39 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
I used to say that iron was soft, and people are hard,
Another coincidence....I am very fond of a description of the early colonial days of sailing...wooden ships and iron men.
My father used a variation of that: When booms were wood, and men were Iron... A lot of old timers set a lot of iron with a gin pole that was about the size of a short telephone pole with hand winch attached and a couple of guy cables...All bull work... Put enough bodies on a beam and you will be surprised what can get done...Like the Bible says: Many hands make light work; but there is a variation to that as well: Many hands get you to the unemployment line sooner...

Like just about anything else in life, ironwork is an intelligence test... There were times I felt like I had invented the wheel because if there was a way to get rollers or anything to ease the movement of great pieces of iron I was on it...Most people would just pull themselves to pieces moving stuff without an advantage... Half the intelligence test was putting up with idiots who were connected in some way, or related... One man can conceive of growing old, and hoping his back could still support him when he got there... Others would look at that man and see slug, and proceed to blow their backs out for a pay off check... You have to be able to do the job to have the job.... As I said often... If you don't have the right tool, you have to use your head... Sort of tough, when you need a pinch bar...
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2010 11:52 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

That word FIN crops up in our language almost as much as form... Define, refine, finite, infinite... In my short spell at university, before my money ran out, I had a professor who several times told a story of two men on a train... One said, looking out the window: Do you see those Brown Cows??? The other said: I do, and they are brown, at least on this side... We apply some trust to all objects to say what they are on the far side, and to say reality does not change out of our sight, that is, to say the color of every cow is the same on both sides...
Hi Fido!!

Yes. I once read a story by Ursula Leguin in which she spoke of how white people killed the massive herds of American buffalos. Imagine my surprise when I learned that a massive reduction in their numbers could be reasonably explained by the ending of the Mini-Ice-Age. I realized that since we lack any evidence one way or the other, truth had become subject to desire. In this case a desire to hate ourselves.

That doesn't mean white people didn't kill them. It means that if you KNOW that they did... you saw one side of the cow and felt assured that you had the whole story. And the result for me was... never again would I take seriously the self-recriminations of one who's talking from an agenda. They'll take anything they see and make it fit their point. People who do that are betraying their own cause. I really don't imagine they'd care even if they realized this. They're only in it for the drama.

Fido wrote:

What is truth if we should over populate to such an extent that we spiral into a dark age and know only war, disease, poverty and misery and that is our legacy??? Truth is a meaning that is only as meaning-ful as the good that comes out of it, and no good is coming out of our commonly accepted views of truth...
If you're saying that truth is meaningless in our case because our truth is leading down a dead-end street... wait a second. The population of humans started into the rise of an exponential curve about 1000 years ago. Do I know why that happened? No... no more than I know where it's headed. As Jung noted, the decline of war and disease are two factors in the rise. So am I to understand that the only way the story can end is for war and disease to return and stabilize the population? Free and hopeless as I am... I deny that. It's not the only way. Feeling grieved that we can't change what we are is the Sickness Unto Death... right? We will change. What we are now will die. And We will live on as somebody else.

Fido wrote:

I don't need God as an infinite defined by infinite moral forms skuzzzing up the gears of reason with some huge greazy omni-hairballs to recognize the fix we are in short term in a finite sense... But, it is a mountain we must move... The economy which is destorying the environment is supported by the religion and both have a long history of respect in metaphysics and law... Great change is needed, but we hardly have the language and consideration for small changes...
Religion is a pick-up truck with a gigantic bed... big enough to toss all crap onto. Some people are religious in their self-hatred. What will we ever be if we don't believe in ourselves? A certain amount of trust is called for... however you describe the anchor of it... right?
0 Replies
 
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 04:14 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Jesus, bright boy, read your own thread title. You are the one who alleges that the planet is being destroyed.
To everybody, the thread is about pollution and greener fuels ok.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 11:55 am
@Caroline,
I absolutely care. I am watching a show on the tube called "Aftermath: Population Overload" and I believe it to be a very likely nearer-term scenario. http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/aftermath/4463/Overview
Quote:
Imagine our population doubling overnight to 14 billion people, demanding more from an already struggling planet. Billions of people are homeless even as mega-skyscrapers are built. Food supplies and natural resources dwindle, and clean water rationing is a part of everyday life. Deadly smog shrouds cities. Countries are transformed as people are forced to migrate to survive. NGC shows you the devastating impacts of a suddenly overcrowded world.
I assert that the essential problem is we are unable/unwilling to change so as to have a small stable population and thus minimize the negative effects on the environment and maximize our own survival.

We are in essence doomed to ****-up big time and kill ourselves off.

The knowledge of this net result weighs heavily on me, even though for all intents and purposes Man can not last forever and will inevitably die off, the immediacy and stupidity of it all exacerbates my sadness.
tenderfoot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Dec, 2010 10:50 pm
I think population control is the quickest and only way we will eventually " evolve " into doing what has to be done.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Dec, 2010 06:23 pm
@tenderfoot,
Hi tenderfoot I have read very litle of your work so I can not give my opinion on your work but I do have a question for you though!

Why do you find it necessary for me to control your evolutionary process? Are you sure that what I have in mind is the same as you, "when I use population control?
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2010 12:29 am

Hi there Reasoning Logic..... For many years now, my wife and I have commented to each other on the problem of over population in China and realized that it it was going to be a world wide problem, also that normal evolution trends would solve the problem eventually, as it is done in the locust plagues and mice plagues.
But thought humans could speed up the solutions and do it in a more "humane " way, but wouldn't have a clue how, in other words just "thinking" out load.
 

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