Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:01 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
If he's only doing it for the money then he's probably not that good anyway and nothing of value would be lost.

1) The question isn't whether he's only doing it for money. The relevant question is about marginal changes. If we increased or decreased intellectual property protections just a bit, what marginal impact would that have on the production of intellectual value? And what level of IP protection does it take to maximize the amount of intellectual value produced?

2) When artists cannot create art for money, they'll have to do other work to feed themselves. The time they spend doing this other work is lost for their production of art. These realities of life apply to genius artists as much as they apply to wannabes. In this sense, intellectual property rights can increase even the output of very good artists.
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:02 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
So why shouldn't the law recognize the difference in value between a bunch of blank paper and a bunch of paper with a novel written on it?


Because the paper is real property and has real value. A copy of a book has no value. Value is based on scarcity and copies aren't scarce but rather unlimited.

joefromchicago wrote:
Only if I make it freely available for copying, and I've already said that I wouldn't do that.


Either it's locked in your basement, in which case intellectual property laws are irrelevant or you show it to someone and therefore make it freely available for copying.

joefromchicago wrote:
What "liberty?"


The liberty to use my property as I see fit.

joefromchicago wrote:
No, my point is that you can't know how many works weren't created because there wasn't any copyright protection. You can, however, estimate how many great works of art are being produced right now that are being placed by their creators immediately into the public domain.


Like The Alchemist? Published in 1988 and made freely available by the author?

joefromchicago wrote:
So if I stole your novel and passed it off as my own, that would be a crime, but stealing your novel in the first place wouldn't? Why are you so willing to protect the purchaser but not the creator?


Because fraud is a real crime unlike making copies of things.
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:04 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
I've already covered this. If you keep it locked in your basement it's scarce but intellectual property laws are irrelevant. As soon as it's exposed to another person they can copy it all they like. There's no such thing as allowing a single copy because allowing a single copy allows for unlimited copies.

But your entire view of property is based upon its scarcity. As you said: "Property rights are based on scarcity." So if I keep my novel artificially scarce, then shouldn't I have a property interest in the novel -- apart from the paper it's printed on?


The only way to keep it scarce is to keep it locked in your basement and show it to no one. Showing it to another person instantly removes that scarcity. I've already conceded that you are free to keep it locked in your basement. Your question has been answered so can we move on? It's getting tedious answering this same question repeatedly.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:05 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
If he's only doing it for the money then he's probably not that good anyway and nothing of value would be lost.

1) The question isn't whether he's only doing it for money. The relevant question is about marginal changes. If we increased or decreased intellectual property protections just a bit, what marginal impact would that have on the production of intellectual value? And what level of IP protection does it take to maximize the amount of intellectual value produced?

2) When artists cannot create art for money, they'll have to do other work to feed themselves. The time they spend doing this other work is lost for their production of art. These realities of life apply to genius artists as much as they apply to wannabes. In this sense, intellectual property rights can increase even the output of very good artists.


Again, so what? Bach found time. Botticelli found time. If they want to do it then they will find time. If not, oh well.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:12 am
@Night Ripper,
Just out of curiosity, do your thoughts on intellectual property extend to patents?
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:14 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do your thoughts on intellectual property extend to patents?


Yes, all intellectual property is incompatible with the principles of libertarianism.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:19 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper' wrote:
Yes, all intellectual property is incompatible with the principles of libertarianism.

That's not what your intellectual authority says. It says principled libertarians disagree about intellectual property. Indeed it spends the first 15 pages of the article documenting the spectrum of disagreement. Someone hasn't read your source---and it isn't me.
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:22 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Night Ripper' wrote:
Yes, all intellectual property is incompatible with the principles of libertarianism.

That's not what your intellectual authority says. It says principled libertarians disagree about intellectual property. Indeed it spends the first 15 pages of the article documenting the spectrum of disagreement. Someone hasn't read your source---and it isn't me.


Yawn. Do you want to argue against me or just insult me and say that some book says something different?

It's funny how much abuse is coming from your side of the argument.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:28 am
@Night Ripper,
Always happy to amuse you.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:30 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Yawn. Do you want to argue against me or just insult me and say that some book says something different?


He did argue against you, and as per your usual you ignore it and play persecution complex about "insults." You apparently find it insulting to have your arguments systemically dismantled but that doesn't make it any less transparent that you aren't able to refute the counterarguments.

Upon what basis do you declare the concept of intellectual property to be incompatible with libertarianism? You've certainly not made any compelling argument for this and certainly seem more inclined to yawn and poke at your interlocutors than address their arguments.

Quote:
It's funny how much abuse is coming from your side of the argument.


It's funny how your only stock and store is to disparage your interlocutors on account of the perceived "abuse" you are receiving, preferring to ignore their arguments that you have no answer for and play wounded ego over "insults."

It's also funny how you claim that the all intellectual property is incompatible with libertarianism but then hypocritically protect your own intellectual property. I guess this is one of those "do as I say, not as I do" kinds of positions you hold.

Why do you protect your intellectual property while claiming the very notion of intellectual property is invalid?
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:31 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:

roger wrote:

Same answer as for any other kind of theft.


How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.

But they company that spent all of the resources to design the car doesn't benefit.

You're getting the benefit of all of their work for free.

If you don't want to pay the price for the car, then don't buy it. If they want your sale, then they'll find some way to market to you.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:32 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
But they company that spent all of the resources to design the car doesn't benefit.

You're getting the benefit of all of their work for free.

If you don't want to pay the price for the car, then don't buy it. If they want your sale, then they'll find some way to market to you.


That's not an argument. That's a command.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:34 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
It's also funny how you claim that the all intellectual property is incompatible with libertarianism but then hypocritically protect your own intellectual property. I guess this is one of those "do as I say, not as I do" kinds of positions you hold.


I've already debunked this nonsense which you failed to respond to. It's my program, I can write whatever I want into it. I don't tell song writers what lyrics they can't put into it. You're welcome to put anti-copying lyrics in your songs. People are still free to copy it anyways. Just like people are free to bypass my copy protection and copy it anyways. There's nothing hypocritical but don't let reality get in your way.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:35 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:

roger wrote:

Same answer as for any other kind of theft.


How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.

But they company that spent all of the resources to design the car doesn't benefit.



Sure they do! Because we know that the vast majority of people will not, in fact, produce a car on their own. The company doesn't make money off of the design but the production of the car.

If you make an exact copy of an existing product, it will cost you - in nearly every single case - far more to do so than to simply buy the product from those who have dedicated production facilities.

Cycloptichorn
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:37 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:

roger wrote:

Same answer as for any other kind of theft.


How is copyright infringement theft? If I steal your car, you can't use it anymore. If I make an exact copy of your car, your car hasn't been stolen because you can still use it.

But they company that spent all of the resources to design the car doesn't benefit.



Sure they do! Because we know that the vast majority of people will not, in fact, produce a car on their own. The company doesn't make money off of the design but the production of the car.

If you make an exact copy of an existing product, it will cost you - in nearly every single case - far more to do so than to simply buy the product from those who have dedicated production facilities.

Cycloptichorn


Also, let's not ignore the fact that much of that research was probably done in public universities and funded by government grants. It's hilarious how these companies use public resources to develop technology yet somehow they feel entitled to own patents on it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:38 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Because the paper is real property and has real value. A copy of a book has no value. Value is based on scarcity and copies aren't scarce but rather unlimited.

Not so. Copies are scarce if they are made scarce.

Night Ripper wrote:
Either it's locked in your basement, in which case intellectual property laws are irrelevant or you show it to someone and therefore make it freely available for copying.

I don't agree that I make it "freely available for copying" by allowing someone to look at it. But let's suppose I write my one-of-a-kind novel and allow people to read it for a fee. Before I allow them to look at it, however, I make them sign a contract stating that they agree not to make copies of my novel. Now, suppose you sign that contract and look at my novel and then go ahead and make a copy of it anyway. Can I sue you for breach of contract? If so, what should be the measure of my damages?

Night Ripper wrote:
The liberty to use my property as I see fit.

You're begging the question again.

Night Ripper wrote:
Like The Alchemist? Published in 1988 and made freely available by the author?

That's one.

Night Ripper wrote:
Because fraud is a real crime unlike making copies of things.

And yet more question-begging.

Night Ripper wrote:
The only way to keep it scarce is to keep it locked in your basement and show it to no one. Showing it to another person instantly removes that scarcity. I've already conceded that you are free to keep it locked in your basement. Your question has been answered so can we move on? It's getting tedious answering this same question repeatedly.

Then you must understand how tedious it is to be answered with a lot of question-begging repeatedly. You argue that there should be no copyright, but you base that conclusion on the assumption that there should be no copyright. That's begging the question. You say that my one-of-a-kind novel can be freely copied, but then that's because you assume that you can freely copy it.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:43 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
I've already debunked this nonsense which you failed to respond to.


You did no such thing. Strength of conviction and obdurate gainsay is not "debunking." Your arguments are predicated on fallacies (straw men men, slippery slope fallacy about rape and death, begging the question) and ultimately only rest on a stubbornly stated ipse dixit.

Quote:
It's my program, I can write whatever I want into it.


I agree, it's your intellectual property. But why do you treat your intellectual property like your property while claiming the very concept is invalid?

Quote:
I don't tell song writers what lyrics they can't put into it.


You have soundly refuted this argument... that I never made.

Quote:
You're welcome to put anti-copying lyrics in your songs. People are still free to copy it anyways. Just like people are free to bypass my copy protection and copy it anyways.


Why do you put copy protection on "your" intellectual property if the very notion of intellectual property is something you consider invalid?


Quote:
There's nothing hypocritical but don't let reality get in your way


Oh but there is, you have intellectual property, value it, and go out of your way to protect "your" property, but then argue that the very notion of intellectual property is invalid.

It's both hypocritical and logically inconsistent.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:43 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper wrote:
Ideas aren't scarce.

Good ones are.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:44 am
@Night Ripper,
I think the negatives of no patent system drastically outweigh any positives you might imagine. One example is the invention of the forceps, an intrument to help in childbirth. After the perfection of the design of the forceps, the inventors keep it secret for a century, meaning that unless you could pay top dollar to the obstetrician and happened to live in the English town where he did, you would just have to suffer and perhaps die in childbirth. Of course there is no guarantee that he would have shared his secret for a decent royalty from each pair made, but one benefit of a patent system is that there is no need for such secrecy. He could have participated in many more deliveries by sharing his device than he ever did in real life.

The second consideration is that the development of a meaningful patent is very expensive. It is not enough that a scientist somewhere has a cool idea. That idea must be demonstrated. Equipment must be built, modified and rebuilt. Experiments (often expensive ones) must be run, problems must be solved. A company could easily drop $100 million in fully developing a new idea. You're suggesting that someone could just take those finalized plans, run to somewhere where labor is cheap and take the business. That's going to force companies to hide what they are doing and slow development as they focus on security over problem solving. No scientists are going to publish papers and no peer review. The monster downside to this is that these open forums where scientists in the field interact drive innovation in general. Your competitor may have solved a problem using a new technique, but you can use that technique to solve a different problem. You can see companies that have synergy with yours and decide to tackle mutual problems together. You can even license the technology and get on with your business.

A patent system encourages the free exchange of ideas you desire by protecting the investments of those who generate them. Likewise, music and book copyrights maintain their industries. Why would anyone take the time (sometimes years) to write or edit a book when they stand no chance of making a return for their effort? Many times, the sales of things like music are done on a sliding scale. You can listen to it on the radio for free. If you want a high quality personal copy, you are asked for a dollar. That's it: a dollar. If you are really hooked, if it is really special to you, then maybe you'll come up with $50-$100 for a concert ticket. I'm continuously amazed that people think this is unreasonable. Likewise, you can find a book in the library if you don't want to pay for it, but if you want a copy for yourself, all you have to do it put out a small fee. Do you really think there would have been a Harry Potter 2 if HP1 didn't turn a profit? You are fooling yourself if you think that truly dedicated artists and writers will turn out material for your pleasure with no hope of compensation.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:44 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
I don't agree that I make it "freely available for copying" by allowing someone to look at it. But let's suppose I write my one-of-a-kind novel and allow people to read it for a fee. Before I allow them to look at it, however, I make them sign a contract stating that they agree not to make copies of my novel. Now, suppose you sign that contract and look at my novel and then go ahead and make a copy of it anyway. Can I sue you for breach of contract? If so, what should be the measure of my damages?


Finally, some progress. Yes, you are quite right that you can force people to sign a contract that says they can't make copies upon reading it. However, let's say that I sign that contract and then make a copy anyways and give it to Jane. Now, Jane makes copies for everyone she knows and they in turn do the same. The only person you have a legal right to sue is me. You can't sue Jane because she never signed a contract with you. As for damages, let's just say you can do whatever you like, including locking me in a rape dungeon or putting me in a front of a firing squad. I don't really care to argue what damages you are entitled to if I violate a contract since that contract isn't going to get you what you want, namely, a replacement for copyright laws.
 

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