The London demonstrators were not liberals

BBB

It is gratifying to hear you confirm my longstanding conviction that the organizers and many of those demonstrating are left wing extremists. They are using all other anti-war protestors as pawns and shills IMO.
Obviously your personal experience with these people adds tremendous credibility to what you say.

WOW, as a long standing liberal who actually supports helping the Iraqi and other Middle Eastern people escape from tyranny and be able to live in a free society, I can't say I've ever agreed with someone more.

To me it seems as though Bush has so pissed off the left with his religious outpouring into the government, his essentially flat tax proposals, and his blatant violation of basic civil rights with the patriot acts, that the left can't support him even when he's finally doing something good for this country and the world in general.

BBB

I wasn't in London when the protests happened. While there was inevitably a far-left element to the protests, many Brits are against the war, not just extremists.

To brush aside the validity of such arguments by alleging that these people are not part of the mainstream of British political thought is to ignore the truth.

I see the point about the "fair-minded" and "well-intended" attitude of Bush et al to Iraq but we Europeans find it difficult to believe.

Al Qaeda and Iraq have no significant connection. The money would have been better spent in sorting out Afghanistan properly.

Many have the strong suspicion that the USA is furthering its own interests far more than those of the people of Iraq:

1. Access to Oil
2. Military forces in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia is keen to remove the US military presence there)

I can't say that these things are right of wrong for America, Britain and their allies. All I will say is that there appears to be little of no realisation of how valid the protests of the resistance movement in Iraq are. This is now an occupied country - people are bound to be annoyed by an external nation trying to impose its ideas through force, however bad the previous regime.

The point about the lack of contrition or apparent self-examination by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush himself does really stick in the throats of Europeans. We tend to like to weigh up the merits of alternatives, see the other side and then act accordingly (France and Germany's positions in the UN). Our view is that the religious fervour and failure to see another way of government than the capitalist/democratic way in which the USA portrays itself to the rest of the world are too biased to form a good basis for action.

Whether this rhetoric is actually supported in freedom/genuine democracy/opportunity in the USA itself is a debate for another thread. I suspect that hypocricy lies at the heart of Bush's administration, due to the interested religious/industrial powers that support the party and electoral campaigns.

Gone a bit off-topic, but my signature line holds as true in this context as any other.

KP

this is so typical of the right. does anybody remember the reason we went to war? iraq, with its WMDs, was an imminent threat! the right wants to forget about that.

lack of contrition? how about lack of honesty?

Kitchenpete
Kitchenpete, my comments re the extreme elements were relative to the last demonstrations during Bush's visit to have tea with the Queen. I thought them different than earlier demonstrations where a broad cross section of the public participated. I admired the Brits who demonstrated earlier in a rational way. The problem is that the extremes of the Left and of the Right see opportunities to co-op these well-intentioned people and take over their reasonable demonstrations.

This last demonstration reminded me so much of the tactics used by the extreme left and anarchists that I've seen in the past. I've know some of the leaders of such groups and they don't try to hide the fact that they act to create publicity, recruits and money to their causes more than acting in support of their announced causes. They act to destabilize more than to educate. They act to make political and social life worse in hope that the public will rebel---"then come the revolution." The extreme Right uses the same tactics. Spare me from the extremes of the Left and of the Right!

I used to really ream out some people I knew and actually cared about because they thought they were changing the world by demonstrating in San Francisco about a condition in the mid-east, for example. I used to tell them they were lazy, that it was easier to demonstrate for a distant cause than to actually work to accomplish something where you can see the result. And if they really wanted to make a difference in the world, they should try doing some good for people locally where it can make a difference. Doing local good works can tend to spread up to higher and higher levels. I know its not as exciting or romantic, but at least its not hypocritical.

Trying to change society's ills is really hard work and requires quite a bit of personal sacrifice. I'm reminded of the Freedom Riders who risked their lives to support the Civil Rights Movement. My disabilities prevented me from going, so I took care of several children so their their parents could travel to the South, even spending time in jail.

I participated in very few demonstrations but was deeply involved in the actual work of trying to bring change with people who could actually make it happen. Its a long arduous process, much harder than demonstrating for publicity and a momentary high.

Well, I wasn't in London either, at that time, but a coiple of days earlier.

What I got to know personally and from the media, it wasn't organized at all by "by the extreme left and anarchists".

What do you mean by that this demonstartion reminded you of "tacticts by ..."?
These "tacticts" were wellknown before, and just because of them, the demonstration got the official permission to go near Downingstreet/Whitehall.