Why Race?

@ebrown p,

Quote:

When America started, blacks were slaves. Women couldn't vote. Native Americans weren't included. Asians weren't welcome

You feel mighty free to time shift standards of behaviour, may your great, great, great grandchildren do the same to you. With any luck they will come around regularly to spit on your grave.

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
This argument fails to account for the entitlement many whites have such that they can under perform comparatively and remain successful
Really? Tell that to men, who are now getting beat at every turn by women...

I don't observe this happening. Rather, I see women having to work extra hard to gain respect in the workplace.

I'm in the engineering field, a field dominated traditionally by men. My workplace tells a different story of men stepping in an assuming our female coworkers are less capable of their job.

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Aren't women still being paid less on average for doing the same work as men? I can look that up - but I'm pretty sure that hasn't evened out...

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@snood,

I believe the gap is narrowing, but yes I believe so. I read some US labor statistics about a year ago that supported that there is still a significant wage gap.

Here is a paper published in 2007 from the Dept of Labor: Gender Statistics

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@failures art,

Quote:

I'm in the engineering field, a field dominated traditionally by men. My workplace tells a different story of men stepping in an assuming our female coworkers are less capable of their job.

I was in the EE class of 1985, at the time something like 10% of the BS went to women, and they rarely stayed in the field for long. Things have changed a lot haven't they....

The Engineering field was one of the last for women to take hold of, it is a poor example of the general position of women today.

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@failures art,

Quote:

I believe the gap is narrowing, but yes I believe so. I read some US labor statistics about a year ago that supported that there is still a significant wage gap

I think that as of last year women out earned men in total, because so many men are out of work. Women are now the families majority bread winner....

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

The Engineering field was one of the last for women to take hold of, it is a poor example of the general position of women today.

On the contrary, I think it's the PERFECT example. It is a field in which an individual must work very hard and has clear material means of demonstrating competency and excellence. It is a field that has been traditionally occupied by men, and with the percentage of women in the engineering workforce growing, their acceptance and ability to earn promotions is very telling of how biased the institutions/industries are.

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@failures art,

I would argue that the relatively poor showing of women in engineering is not due to roadblocks, but to lack of interest from women in the field. This goes back to high school when women become less interested in math and science compared to the boys. We don't know why.

Quote:

Now two new studies by economists and social scientists have reached a perhaps startling conclusion: An important part of the explanation for the gender gap, they are finding, are the preferences of women themselves. When it comes to certain math- and science-related jobs, substantial numbers of women - highly qualified for the work - stay out of those careers because they would simply rather do something else.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/05/18/the_freedom_to_say_no/?page=full

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Back to race for a second, an update on a thread from over a year ago, the Oakland Police officer that shot and killed the man on the BART managed to get a verdict of "involuntary manslaughter.

Original thread

From that thread...

snood wrote:

Well, the "blowback" might be over-the-top, but I can understand that kind of reaction to another unaddressed brutality by police.

If this guy gets off, it will be another implicit statement that minorites can be beaten or executed at will by police. It's the only kind of reaction that seems to fit, to me.

...Snood was right.

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@failures art,

Quote:

Back to race for a second

let's turn my last post to race....you put your mind around the idea that women do poorly in engineering due to some problem with the system, and I showed that the situation is partly caused by desire. Are you responsible for what a woman desires? Have we failed if women do not want what men want?

A lot of the reason poor blacks do poorly is that the families that raise them are a mess. Lower class black women tend to have babies with several different men, and normally set up household where the men are not around much or at all. What is ART the upstanding citizen going to do about that? Can we ever significantly improve the chances of black children if this problem does not get solved? Who is to blame for bitchy black women who make it clear that they neither need nor want men around, and for black men who don't insist upon being around to help raise their children in spite of what the women want? For instance, Am I?

Or is ART going to take the easy answer, and claim that since blacks under preform that the system has failed, so we need to fix the system?

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...Just reading about that BART case.

...Unbelievable. The guy is getting two years for murdering a defenseless and unarmed man while he lay subdued by another cop facedown on the pavement. His "defense' was that he mistook his (about 1.5 lb) police revolver for his (about 7 ounce) Taser.

Looting and rioting is mindless and fruitless. But I have to say... I could understand the need to break something and make some kind of noise.

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

I think that, perhaps, those of us who are not objects of race too easily overlook those who are.

What on earth does "object of race" mean?

Allow me to put it into simpler terms that you may understand. Those whom are not actively subjected to racism. White people, for instance.

I'm sad when I read things like this.

White people ARE a part of the discussion of race and identity. Although, something about post colonial America has effectively neutered many whites of any sort of ethnic identity, I think some people get caught in the mentality that they are "just white" and that race is something for non-whites.

I think this is bad for two reasons. It's bad because it (1) creates a different expectation of engagement on important issues, and (2) makes people feel like they are less entitled to their emotions when they are discriminated against (reverse racism - Dumb term, but it conveys the idea here).

I worry very much that racial dialogs have left out many people.

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Exactly.

There's those at the top of the food chain who have all the power and then there's the rest of us. So far as the rest of us are concerned, I couldn't give a flying **** as to what race anyone is (putting aside the idea that "race" actually means anything anyway).

If you are one of "us" then you are my brother when push comes to shove. If you are one of those in power (or one of their useful idiots) , then you are my enemy when push comes to shove.

Everything else is just bullshit.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Back to race for a second
let's turn my last post to race....you put your mind around the idea that women do poorly in engineering due to some problem with the system, and I showed that the situation is partly caused by desire. Are you responsible for what a woman desires? Have we failed if women do not want what men want?

I didn't say women do poorly, I said they're efforts are undermined. The women I work with very much desire to be where they are.

hawkeye10 wrote:

A lot of the reason poor blacks do poorly is that the families that raise them are a mess. Lower class black women tend to have babies with several different men, and normally set up household where the men are not around much or at all. What is ART the upstanding citizen going to do about that?

Red Herring.

We are talking about equal access to the tools of success, so if you want to draw a comparison, do a comparison between lower class single parent white mothers and black ones.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Can we ever significantly improve the chances of black children if this problem does not get solved? Who is to blame for bitchy black women who make it clear that they neither need nor want men around, and for black men who don't insist upon being around to help raise their children in spite of what the women want? For instance, Am I?

Red Herring.

The choices of individuals should not effect the services that are made available to the whole.

Also, how is a single black mother any more "bitchy," than a white one?

hawkeye10 wrote:

Or is ART going to take the easy answer, and claim that since blacks under preform that the system has failed, so we need to fix the system?

The system is broke. I don't need equal results, but I do need an equal system.

Call it the "easy answer" all you like. Personal responsibility is the largest part of any success, but using that as an excuse to leave a system broken is sick.

In this BART shooting, tell me that had the victim been a white woman and the cop had been a black male, we'd have seen such an absurd verdict. Let's hear your EASY ANSWER. You pretend to stand for personal responsibility, well where is your demand for responsibility from the justice system?

You're right, there are a lot of people "under performing."

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@snood,

snood wrote:

And to tell those who don’t bother to post on the majority of my threads that have nothing to do with race, and only show up on the ones that do to whine “here we go again” – you are truly irrelevant, in the purest sense of the word, to me.

Snood, we've talked about this before (and if you're going to quote me, at least attribute it to me). I have never and will never object to talking about race. My objection to your post about the Williams' sister, or any of the other racial issues that you're commented on (and while you may have only posted about 16% of race related posts, you've commented on many that you didn't create) is that I've NEVER (and I've been paying attention) seen you hold an opinion that something was not racist. I've NEVER seen you hold an opinion that a situation or comment or cartoon WASN'T offensive to black people or that black people shouldn't be offended.

There been some really outlandish examples of perceived racism, and I've NEVER seen you agree that the issue posted about was outlandish. Here is one of my favorite examples.

http://able2know.org/topic/114871-1
Black Kids Called Monkeys, Obama Delegate Quits

I ask you on page 3 if you have an opinion on this matter, and you say that you "didn't have anything to add to the monkey thread." Which is fine (I suppose). I find it very odd though that you NEVER seem to have an opinion on threads where the situation is clearly NOT racist. I've NEVER seen you take the defense of the person who is being slandered by (in this case) a black person.

Page 7 I ask again. On page 9 you post that I should "..feel free to kiss [your] black ass."

You seemed then, and still do today, to NEVER have an opinion about issues where racism charges are overblown or simply wrong.

When I said "here we go again" it was in response to what I perceive as you making another racism issue out of a non-issue (you're not the only one, but you're remarkably one-sided, truly).

So Snood, I'm sorry if you have a problem with me....well no I'm not, I have a problem with your intellectual honesty about race related issues. I am not interested in your relationship or other types of posts; although I would value your perspective on race issues, if they weren't ALWAYS one sided.

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@maporsche,

One (me) wonders why you drag up 2 year old stuff to try to make some kind of point. In that thread you were simply baiting Snood as is clear by what you wrote. You added nothing to the thread and took it as an opportunity to bring Snood into something that he obviously had no intention of posting about. Is this your reaction to racism or is it your way of aggravating racism?

(taken from maporche's link)
maporsche wrote: - Wed. Apr 9, 2008
I wonder why Snood or teenyboone haven't chimed in yet.......

...or did I miss them?

Snood replied:

Uh, maybe we didn't have anything to add to the monkey thread....

I'm sorry - are the black folks supposed to post on the threads that mention black people?

Mea culpa. Not up on the etiquette.

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Within the past 12 to 18 months, I have read two books that expose racism in America. One is non-fiction, Douglas Blackmon's Pulitzer Prize winning Slavery By Another Name, while the other is a novel that our own Kara gave to me, Mudbound by Hilary Jordan.

Both books told me things that I should have already known.

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@Intrepid,

I was pointing out then (2 years ago) what I pointed out in my last post here.

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@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

I was pointing out then (2 years ago) what I pointed out in my last post here.

That begs the question.... Why? How does that add to any discussion? Why don't you be up front and just say what you are thinking. It is obvious anyhow. Your remarks are obviously race motivated.

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The worst, most blatant and most vitriolic racism right now, is directed toward Muslims. They are followed by Hispanics. Does anyone care to try to dispute this?

The targets of prejudice are changing. Women getting jobs is good news, things have certainly gotten better for women. But there are people who are facing worse prejudice then ever. Prejudice shifts from group to group, but it is still very prevalent in the US.

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@Intrepid,

Yes, obviously.

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@maporsche,

Sometimes Ma Porsche - people who you might think should be most interested in or can personally relate to a subject specifically DON'T post because it's impossible to distance themselves enough from that subject to speak unemotionally about it.
Some things are difficult for some people to even read, much less speak about. And then when you factor in the aspect that the other people who are commenting and contributing don't know you personally - don't know how their casual comments might cause you painful discovery or even cause you to lose hope about something you care deeply about - can you not understand why they might not want to subject themselves to that?

There are only certain people I will engage with about my spiritual beliefs on this forum. I don't need to hear or read from people who don't know anything else about me or what my spirituality may have meant to me or helped me deal with in my life - that I'm an unitelligent, idiotic, delusional lunatic for adhering to a philosophy that means a lot to me.

Do you really think black people enjoy reading that some people equate some black people with animals? Do you have any idea how much that might hurt or discourage a black person who wants to believe that things have changed? Why should they subject themselves to such hateful ignorance? I totally understand a black person choosing to by-pass such a thread.
'There's enough pain and ignorance in life without you ever having to seek it out- so don't,' is something my father said to me probably twenty-five years ago. I think he was right.

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