20
   

Why Race?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 08:30 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan: "When I was growing up, we didn't even know racism was a problem."


Jesus, but he was thick. Why do conservatives seem to grasp for stupidity like a drowning man grasps at a straw?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 08:37 pm
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

I think that, perhaps, those of us who are not objects of race too easily overlook those who are.

What on earth does "object of race" mean?



Allow me to put it into simpler terms that you may understand. Those whom are not actively subjected to racism. White people, for instance.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 08:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
The problem that I speak of about is not really a racial issue, it is one of a society that has gotten fat and lazy and where many no longer are educated enough to know what leads to a happy/successful life. There are huge numbers of white people who are just as bad as lower class blacks for instance, I guess we are calling them "white trash"...those who want want want but who have never bothered to get educated and who are none too interested in hard work either...

**** them.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 08:41 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
Those whom are not actively subjected to racism. White people, for instance.


This raises an interesting point.

How many white folk can remember a time in their lives when they were subjected to a racist action or comment?

If you were, what were your reactions, your feelings/emotions?
failures art
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 08:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
The advancement of women in western society toward equality has not been a practice of "quiet time." The same can be said for racial and ethnic minorities. I'm not sure what you think doesn't get done, but there are real obstacles in the way of progress. It's not whining.

You don't have to take ownership of any injustice. That's not the point. In justice isn't the product of hatred alone. Arguably, injustice is the progeny of a culture of indifference. Indifference, unfortunately, we have in spades in the US. Hitler never had to convince all of Germany to hate the Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies. All he had to do was convince the population to not care or to care more about themselves.*

*I do try not to involve Hitler in discussions, as I find it rather emotionally loaded, but I made exception because we are talking specifically about indifference of the people. If it's better, ignore Hitler himself and think about the citizens of Germany and how their indifference allowed for injustice.

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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:03 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

I think that, perhaps, those of us who are not objects of race too easily overlook those who are.

What on earth does "object of race" mean?



Allow me to put it into simpler terms that you may understand. Those whom are not actively subjected to racism. White people, for instance.

I'm sad when I read things like this.

White people ARE a part of the discussion of race and identity. Although, something about post colonial America has effectively neutered many whites of any sort of ethnic identity, I think some people get caught in the mentality that they are "just white" and that race is something for non-whites.

I think this is bad for two reasons. It's bad because it (1) creates a different expectation of engagement on important issues, and (2) makes people feel like they are less entitled to their emotions when they are discriminated against (reverse racism - Dumb term, but it conveys the idea here).

I worry very much that racial dialogs have left out many people.

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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:19 pm
@failures art,
I do not exclude whites from racial discussions. My point is that us whites do not have to deal with being the subject of racism as people of colour do. I agree that this is sad.

I should probably make the distinction between racism in the U.S. and racism here in Canada. The main difference being that we never had to deal with slavery issues. Having said that, we are certainly not immune from racism. It is just not as much of a black thing here.

We are very diversified and have an abundance of many nationalities and colours since we are by all standards and definitions "a multicultural country."

It is my experience that most racism comes from whites and not much is directed at us.

It really bothers me than when someone types on the internet or talks on the phone they are not, generally, discriminated upon. It is the face to face thing that brings out the racism as it is very much a visual thing.

That is a pity. In nature, the albino (white) is the standout different creature.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:26 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
You don't have to take ownership of any injustice.
the claim that minorities are subject to injustice is not agreed to. There are certainly unequal results, but that does not prove anything. The claim of unequal access to the tools for success is both unproved and dubious.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Who gets pulled over first? White or black?
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You don't have to take ownership of any injustice.
the claim that minorities are subject to injustice is not agreed to. There are certainly unequal results, but that does not prove anything. The claim of unequal access to the tools for success is both unproved and dubious.

How can you argue that both the access to the tools of success are equal, and that no injustice is not agreed to when you yourself say that the results are unequal?

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Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:37 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:
So, why discuss race?

Because the issue is important enough for you to talk about it, and important enough for your corresondents to talk back to you about it. Even when they say talking about race is pointless, they, too, are talking about it. If the topic seriously didn't matter to them, they wouldn't bother showing up in your threads.

So there's no need for you to be self-conscious or defend yourself for doing what you do. If you want to talk about race, just talk.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:43 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
Who gets pulled over first? White or black?
If you are convinced that the cops are incompetent then that is a issue that you should take up post haste. I tend to think that they do a pretty good job figureing out where to apply their attention..


Quote:
CompStat embodies the iconoclastic idea that the police can stop violence before it happens. The department analyzes victim reports daily, and deploys additional manpower to the places where crime is increasing. Once at a crime hot spot, officers are expected to look out for, and respond to, suspicious behavior.

Such stops happen more frequently in minority neighborhoods because that is where the vast majority of violent crime occurs — and thus where police presence is most intense. Based on reports filed by victims, blacks committed 66 percent of all violent crime in New York in 2009, including 80 percent of shootings and 71 percent of robberies. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of reported gun assaults. And the vast majority of the victims of violent crime were also members of minority groups.

Non-Hispanic whites, on the other hand, committed 5 percent of the city’s violent crimes in 2009, 1.4 percent of all shootings and less than 5 percent of all robberies

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/26/opinion/26macdonald.html

Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
There was nothing in my comment regarding anybody's incompetence. You added that in on your own. I am glad that your knowledge and assessment of North American policing standards is so great.

What are the statistics outside of New York?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 09:57 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
How can you argue that both the access to the tools of success are equal, and that no injustice is not agreed to when you yourself say that the results are unequal?
the collective is responsible for making sure that you have equal access to the collectives toolbox as you make your life, how well you take advantage of it, what you do with your life, is your own ******* business. Don't go around yelling injustice when the real problem is lack of will or lack of effort on your part.

Once we provided an education and legal protections for all those who are racially discriminated against most of the heavy lifting that is the collectives job was done. Now most of the work is up to the individual.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 10:01 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
What are the statistics outside of New York?
IDK, but if you come up with proof that the rate at which blacks are stoppedcompaired to whites is grossly out of line with the rate at which stopped blacks are found guilty of a crime compaired to whites please get back to me. That would be something that needs looking into. In the meantime, absent any proof to the contrary, I give the men in blue who go out every day to represent my interests the assumption that they know how to find criminals.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 10:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
This argument fails to account for the entitlement many whites have such that they can under perform comparatively and remain successful.

This idea to blame the minorities seems like it requires a lot of work. Is it so impossible for you to acknowledge that the tools for success are in fact NOT equal?

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hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 10:36 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
This argument fails to account for the entitlement many whites have such that they can under perform comparatively and remain successful
Really? Tell that to men, who are now getting beat at every turn by women...

America started as a meritocracy, and we currently have very active markets for labor and ideas which reward those who do it best. If you want more then do more, this is the American way (and yes, I understand it is strange to hear that from a self described socialist). Nobody is shutting minorities out, they simply have not produced enough.
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 10:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
America started as a meritocracy, and we currently have very active markets for labor and ideas which reward those who do it best.


That's just ridiculous.

When America started, blacks were slaves. Women couldn't vote. Native Americans weren't included. Asians weren't welcome.

America has never been a meritocracy.

snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 11:01 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

snood wrote:
So, why discuss race?

Because the issue is important enough for you to talk about it, and important enough for your corresondents to talk back to you about it. Even when they say talking about race is pointless, they, too, are talking about it. If the topic seriously didn't matter to them, they wouldn't bother showing up in your threads.

So there's no need for you to be self-conscious or defend yourself for doing what you do. If you want to talk about race, just talk.


Alrighty then. Your ... approval is noted.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2010 11:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
This argument fails to account for the entitlement many whites have such that they can under perform comparatively and remain successful
Really? Tell that to men, who are now getting beat at every turn by women...

I don't observe this happening. Rather, I see women having to work extra hard to gain respect in the workplace.

I'm in the engineering field, a field dominated traditionally by men. My workplace tells a different story of men stepping in an assuming our female coworkers are less capable of their job.

A
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