8
   

What is the Truth of philosophy?

 
 
kennethamy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 05:59 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

You don't get it do you ! They didn't "believe" anything at all about the shape of the earth because the issue was never raised! Did you believe in "global warming" in 1990 ? Presumably the phenomenon was going on then but nobody had "thinged" it. And for all we know that "belief" could also die a death if social attitudes change.


I thought that in 1492 Columbus had a lot of trouble finding crews because it was then believed that the world was flat, and so were afraid of falling off the Earth when going past the horizon. But, in any case, what you say is irrelevant since the issue is whether the earth is flat or round, either then or now, not whether there was (or is) a consensus about whether it is flat or round. If there is a consensus among scientists (in 2010) that the earth is round, it is because the earth is round. If your view is that the earth is round because there is a consensus of scientists that the earth is round, then you have things exactly backwards. It is like saying that it is raining because all weather people on TV agree that it is raining, when the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining. Are you really under the impression that because the TV weather people did not agree it was raining, that it would not be raining?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 06:33 pm
@kennethamy,
Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).

kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 07:29 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).




But of course we have access to external reality. This access is through our senses. But everyone knows that. For example, that is how I know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. Of course some people think that all the access you are talking about is indirect. But I see no good reason to think such a thing. My knowledge of Quito is, of course, indirect. But right now I have direct knowledge that there is a computer monitor in front of me. And some people, of course, believe that all of us have direct knowledge of our inner mental states. I don't (myself) think that is true, since if we did, we could not make mistakes about our inner states, and we sometimes do that.

Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 07:47 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

You don't get it do you ! They didn't "believe" anything at all about the shape of the earth because the issue was never raised! Did you believe in "global warming" in 1990 ? Presumably the phenomenon was going on then but nobody had "thinged" it. And for all we know that "belief" could also die a death if social attitudes change.

You know what is really strange about that whole affair??? No sooner had they got the world sphericl, when some scientist actually tried to flatten it out.... He showed that the earth flattens at the poles.. He made a name for himself: the pole flatener...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 07:53 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).



Don't give up... I am starting to enjoy your perspective..
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 08:02 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

fresco wrote:

Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).



Don't give up... I am starting to enjoy your perspective..


Does that mean that you think it is true as well? Or do you just enjoy it. Like a nice concert. Of course, if you think that it is true, then don't you think you should have some good reasons for thinking it is true?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 08:02 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

fresco wrote:

Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).




But of course we have access to external reality. This access is through our senses. But everyone knows that. For example, that is how I know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. Of course some people think that all the access you are talking about is indirect. But I see no good reason to think such a thing. My knowledge of Quito is, of course, indirect. But right now I have direct knowledge that there is a computer monitor in front of me. And some people, of course, believe that all of us have direct knowledge of our inner mental states. I don't (myself) think that is true, since if we did, we could not make mistakes about our inner states, and we sometimes do that.



We can verify physical reality through our senses and extensions of our senses, but at the very moment that we conceive of reality, a portion of reality, we tell a lie, because no concept is exactly true to reality, and it is through our flawed forms that we relate to reality, in a flawed fashion, and not to the thing itself...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 08:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

Fido wrote:

fresco wrote:

Quote:
the truth is that all the weather people on TV agree that it is raining because it is raining.
vacuous clap-trap !

The "is-ness" ="the agreement". We simply cannot have direct access any "external reality".

But you are never going to get it ...and I've got better things to do than philosophy 101 remedial classes...(sleeping for example).



Don't give up... I am starting to enjoy your perspective..


Does that mean that you think it is true as well? Or do you just enjoy it. Like a nice concert. Of course, if you think that it is true, then don't you think you should have some good reasons for thinking it is true?


In the area of moral forms where no actual is-ness can be shown, what is truth is often a matter of agreement, just as justice is... Actually, death is the ultimate judge of truth... Truth is a necessity of life, and if we do not have enough we die... If we have enough there is room for give and take on the issue...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 08:09 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

fresco wrote:

You don't get it do you ! They didn't "believe" anything at all about the shape of the earth because the issue was never raised! Did you believe in "global warming" in 1990 ? Presumably the phenomenon was going on then but nobody had "thinged" it. And for all we know that "belief" could also die a death if social attitudes change.

You know what is really strange about that whole affair??? No sooner had they got the world sphericl, when some scientist actually tried to flatten it out.... He showed that the earth flattens at the poles.. He made a name for himself: the pole flatener...


Does that mean that the world is not a sphere? By the way, no scientist tried to flatten the earth at the poles. I can't imagine anyone trying to do that. What you mean, of course, is that scientists discovered that the earth flattened at the poles. You don't think, I hope, that a scientist went to the poles with a hammer, and began to bang away at them. You should not let your metaphors run away with you. Let me repeat, no scientist "actually tried to flatten it out". It is important to remind you of that because your perspective (which some say they enjoy) is really to think that scientists create truth rather than what is the case, discover truth.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 09:03 pm
@paul s,
paul s wrote:

I have heard someone say that philosophy is the search for Truth.
Quote:


philosophy is the search for Truth

Quote:
I have also heard only one explanation of The Truth that I can accept. Before I tell what it is , could I hear everyone's opinion on this matter?

Let's have a great discussion.


Truth is simple , either the Truth is or it isn't

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 01:06 am
@Fido,
Quote:
We can verify physical reality through our senses and extensions of our senses, but at the very moment that we conceive of reality, a portion of reality, we tell a lie, because no concept is exactly true to reality, and it is through our flawed forms that we relate to reality, in a flawed fashion, and not to the thing itself...


Fido, you are on an ostensibly promising track, but you are missing the fundamental point that "the senses" are themselves being "thinged" by our sociolinguistic conditioning and cannot be "directly observed". Indeed Husserl argued that the "noumenal world" was "not required", and we should stick to "phenomenology". My position, like that of Maturana ,is to refuse the dichotomy between "inner" and "outer" and reject terms like "sense data" since "data" are always predefined by observer requirements.

The observation of observation has also been investigated by systems theorists such as Von Forster who gave it the label "second order cybernetics". The mathematical model emerging implies a set of nested levels of "reality" starting at "the cell" and moving outwards through "organs", "bodies", "societies" and beyond. The status of any level of such reality takes into account aspects of levels "above it" as in the concept of Gestalt. From this it follows that "reality" can never be accounted for by reductionist analysis, a conclusion in line with Wittgenstein's rejection of his Tractatus with respect to its reliance on the "correspondence theory of truth".
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 04:34 am
@north,
north wrote:

paul s wrote:

I have heard someone say that philosophy is the search for Truth.
Quote:


philosophy is the search for Truth

Quote:
I have also heard only one explanation of The Truth that I can accept. Before I tell what it is , could I hear everyone's opinion on this matter?

Let's have a great discussion.


Truth is simple , either the Truth is or it isn't




Quantum theory is simple. Either quantum theory is or it isn't. Relativity theory is simple: either it is or it isn't. The Big Bang theory is simple.Either it is or it isn't. According to your argument then, everything is simple. But that is false. So your argument is wrong.
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 04:52 am
so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 06:34 am
@salima,
"I" dies every night during dreamless sleep, and is not "present" for most of the day either. Think about it !
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 06:42 am
@salima,
salima wrote:

so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...


I is true that either you are going to die or you are not.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 07:29 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
We can verify physical reality through our senses and extensions of our senses, but at the very moment that we conceive of reality, a portion of reality, we tell a lie, because no concept is exactly true to reality, and it is through our flawed forms that we relate to reality, in a flawed fashion, and not to the thing itself...


Fido, you are on an ostensibly promising track, but you are missing the fundamental point that "the senses" are themselves being "thinged" by our sociolinguistic conditioning and cannot be "directly observed". Indeed Husserl argued that the "noumenal world" was "not required", and we should stick to "phenomenology". My position, like that of Maturana ,is to refuse the dichotomy between "inner" and "outer" and reject terms like "sense data" since "data" are always predefined by observer requirements.

The observation of observation has also been investigated by systems theorists such as Von Forster who gave it the label "second order cybernetics". The mathematical model emerging implies a set of nested levels of "reality" starting at "the cell" and moving outwards through "organs", "bodies", "societies" and beyond. The status of any level of such reality takes into account aspects of levels "above it" as in the concept of Gestalt. From this it follows that "reality" can never be accounted for by reductionist analysis, a conclusion in line with Wittgenstein's rejection of his Tractatus with respect to its reliance on the "correspondence theory of truth".


I am not missing any of that stuff... The fact that we can to some extent verify physical reality does not give us absolute proof of anything, and yet we manage to live in the physical world... I am a moralist, so in determining what something is I have even less to go on. So pity me, but I will manage..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 07:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

salima wrote:

so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...


I is true that either you are going to die or you are not.

Humans are made human in the denial of that fact, what ever human is, good or bad...
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 08:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

salima wrote:

so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...


I is true that either you are going to die or you are not.


why isnt it just plain true that i will die? can't science prove that life will come to an end? and if nothing is true, what is everybody debating things for? i mean like the atheist/theist or spiritualist/materialist issues, etc...wouldnt that mean that they (both sides) are also either true or not true?
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 08:37 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:

salima wrote:

so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...


I is true that either you are going to die or you are not.


ok, how about this...is it true that i am alive?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jul, 2010 09:58 am
@salima,
salima wrote:

kennethamy wrote:

salima wrote:

so is it true that i am going to die or isn't it? please say it is true...


I is true that either you are going to die or you are not.


ok, how about this...is it true that i am alive?


At the time you asked the question, since it would have been difficult for you to have asked it if you had not been alive.
0 Replies
 
 

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