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purpose of political ideology

 
 
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2009 10:40 pm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 744 • Replies: 14
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Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 04:49 am
@jeafl cv,
It all depends on what has been done in the past.

Conservatives are vaguely defined as people who promote traditional values and views and liberals are defined as people who favor reforms and new ideas.

although what this means exactly varies from country to country as what is considered tradition may also change from country to country.
jeafl cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 05:54 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;63276 wrote:
It all depends on what has been done in the past.

Conservatives are vaguely defined as people who promote traditional values and views and liberals are defined as people who favor reforms and new ideas.

although what this means exactly varies from country to country as what is considered tradition may also change from country to country.


How do you explain that people who are generally thought to be conservative in the present, i.e., Republicans, reject some of the things that this country once had- things like high taxes (namely tariffs to protect domestic industry) and government give-a-way programs (such as the Homestead Laws) and government subsidies for industry (namely railroads)? Are there no core beliefs that control whether or not people are liberal or conservative? If not why is there so much political bickering in this country? And if there are core beliefs, what are they meant to accomplish?

Furthermore, if conservatism simply means adherence to past, what is about the past that conservatives find so desirable? Do conservatives crave everything from the past or are there certain past things that they would reject?
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 11:45 pm
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63263 wrote:


Well, first off your lists are highly biased. You're a conservative I'm guessing.

There's nothing "liberal" about abortion, so you can strike that off of your list. Nobody is pro-killing. That was the first giveaway of your slant. Better question is what is so conservative about restricting a person's choices? Easy answer: God.

The same thing of "sodomite" marriage. What's so conservative about again restricting a person's choices? Easy answer again: God.

The low spending and balanced budget? Now THAT is funny. Haven't had that in eight years and those were spent under a rather conservative (if we use your lists) presidency (and house/senate/SCOTUS for six years).

Liberals do not oppose a strong military. We DO oppose runaway military spending... such as that which we have seen for over half a decade. You wanna know where our money's gone? Look no further. A military can be kept strong by other means than throwing metric ton blocks of money at it.

What's so conservative about an oversized military? Another easy one: Manifest Destiny, i.e. God.

Seeing a pattern here?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 06:30 am
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63280 wrote:
How do you explain that people who are generally thought to be conservative in the present, i.e., Republicans, reject some of the things that this country once had- things like high taxes (namely tariffs to protect domestic industry) and government give-a-way programs (such as the Homestead Laws) and government subsidies for industry (namely railroads)?


Conservatives don't promote everything that has been done in the past, that would be an impossibility.

Quote:
Are there no core beliefs that control whether or not people are liberal or conservative?


No the terms are entirely relative.

Quote:

If not why is there so much political bickering in this country?


Tension


Quote:

Furthermore, if conservatism simply means adherence to past, what is about the past that conservatives find so desirable?


Comfort.


Quote:
Do conservatives crave everything from the past or are there certain past things that they would reject?


Depends on what they value.
jeafl cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 07:37 am
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;63290 wrote:
Well, first off your lists are highly biased. You're a conservative I'm guessing.


How so? Considering that I have been called just about anything in the world on various web forums- some of which are mutually exclusive, I could be a centrist. And note that I said in the starting post that the lists are based on popular perception; I am asking why popular culture and the news media classifies these issues the way they are classified in my post. I am not saying that the lists are objective in any way.

Quote:
There's nothing "liberal" about abortion, so you can strike that off of your list.


If conservatism simply means adherence to tradition, then marriage would be a component of conservatism because marriage is a tradition. So since abortion makes it easy to avoid the consequences of sex outside of marriage abortion strikes a blow against marriage. Thus abortion must be a liberal policy.

Quote:
The same thing of "sodomite" marriage. What's so conservative about again restricting a person's choices? Easy answer again: God.


Again marriage. And do you deny that based on politics, the web and the news media most people who consider themselves to be liberal are in favor of abortion and sodomite marriage while most people who consider themselves to be conservative are opposed to both abortion and sodomite marriage? If there is nothing liberal or conservative about these issues, why do liberals and conservatives believe what they believe about them?

Quote:
The low spending and balanced budget? Now THAT is funny. Haven't had that in eight years and those were spent under a rather conservative (if we use your lists) presidency (and house/senate/SCOTUS for six years).


When have I said that either Bush or Reagan were conservative?

Quote:
Liberals do not oppose a strong military.
Quote:
What's so conservative about an oversized military? Another easy one: Manifest Destiny, i.e. God.


Has any country ever been attacked when their military is too strong?
jeafl cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 07:45 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;63295 wrote:
Conservatives don't promote everything that has been done in the past, that would be an impossibility.


Then what makes them pick and choose what they do?

Quote:
Tension


Explain. Why are office holders and other politicians so tense? What drives the constant bickering among politicians in and out of office?

Quote:
Comfort.


Then what are liberals looking for in change?

Quote:
Depends on what they value.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 09:35 am
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63303 wrote:
Then what makes them pick and choose what they do?


I don't honestly know.

Quote:
Explain. Why are office holders and other politicians so tense? What drives the constant bickering among politicians in and out of office?


Politicians more than other people have their jobs at risk, the pressure of having to solve current crisis', and highly conflicting opinions all together make a breeding ground for tension.



Quote:
Then what are liberals looking for in change?


You want a generalized answer, and i can't give one. It's situation dependent.



Quote:


Usually they do.
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 09:36 am
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63300 wrote:

Again marriage. And do you deny that based on politics, the web and the news media most people who consider themselves to be liberal are in favor of abortion and sodomite marriage while most people who consider themselves to be conservative are opposed to both abortion and sodomite marriage? If there is nothing liberal or conservative about these issues, why do liberals and conservatives believe what they believe about them?


I think he is talking about the fact that you refer to it as "sodomite marriage" rather than gay marriage or same-sex marriage.
jeafl cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 11:29 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;63313 wrote:
Politicians more than other people have their jobs at risk, the pressure of having to solve current crisis', and highly conflicting opinions all together make a breeding ground for tension.
Quote:
You want a generalized answer, and i can't give one. It's situation dependent.
Quote:
I think he is talking about the fact that you refer to it as "sodomite marriage" rather than gay marriage or same-sex marriage.


My science training tends to make me use precise terminology. I cannot help it if such precision offends people.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 01:31 pm
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63319 wrote:
Should we assume that voters are just as partisan as the politicians they elect are?


Generally I find the populace to be less partisan than politicians simply because of the structure of system. To receive financial aid one must submit their beliefs to one of the core establishments. If your read the signature on any of my posts you will see this is contrary to the wishes of Thomas Jefferson.


Quote:
Quote:
I would venture that people are sociologically (if not biologically) programmed to be conservative or liberal.


I find that claim to be quite laughable. Political views have been ever changing for centuries. What most people consider conservative now may have been considered liberal in the past. Political ideologies are based on society and upbringing more than anything.


Quote:
My science training tends to make me use precise terminology. I cannot help it if such precision offends people.


Ha! I find that to be of the utmost ridiculousness. Sodomite is not scientific terminology, far from it, it is a derogatory term used by religious zealots and their rhetoric. In fact the scientific term would be homosexual, which would be more precise.
jeafl cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2009 11:23 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;63323 wrote:
Generally I find the populace to be less partisan than politicians simply because of the structure of system.
Quote:
To receive financial aid one must submit their beliefs to one of the core establishments. If your read the signature on any of my posts you will see this is contrary to the wishes of Thomas Jefferson.


To the contrary. One need not vote in order to get financial aid from the government. My late grandfather adored Franklin Roosevelt and after he was forced by arthritis to retire from being a diesel mechanic he received an SSI disability pension for the last 22 years of his life. But he was never ever registered to vote.

Quote:
I find that claim to be quite laughable. Political views have been ever changing for centuries. What most people consider conservative now may have been considered liberal in the past. Political ideologies are based on society and upbringing more than anything.


But do core beliefs change simply because we change their labels?

Quote:
Ha! I find that to be of the utmost ridiculousness. Sodomite is not scientific terminology, far from it, it is a derogatory term used by religious zealots and their rhetoric. In fact the scientific term would be homosexual, which would be more precise.


So why do Sodomites call themselves gay and not simply homosexuals?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 04:50 am
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63327 wrote:
Quote:
To the contrary. One need not vote in order to get financial aid from the government. My late grandfather adored Franklin Roosevelt and after he was forced by arthritis to retire from being a diesel mechanic he received an SSI disability pension for the last 22 years of his life. But he was never ever registered to vote.


No no no no. I'm talking about the candidates not the voters. Political campaigns are typically funded from donations via the democrats or republicans. Candidates need money to run a campaign, so if they don't submit to the creed of either party they don't get the money to run a campaign.



Quote:
But do core beliefs change simply because we change their labels?


It's not a label change it's an entire worldview that's been consistently changing. Compare medieval ideologies to today's they are radically different.



Quote:
So why do Sodomites call themselves gay and not simply homosexuals?


They do both but "gay" is much easier to say. In professional situations we use the term "homosexual" or "same-sex" because it is more professional and it is more precise.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2009 09:16 pm
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63300 wrote:
How so? Considering that I have been called just about anything in the world on various web forums- some of which are mutually exclusive, I could be a centrist. And note that I said in the starting post that the lists are based on popular perception; I am asking why popular culture and the news media classifies these issues the way they are classified in my post. I am not saying that the lists are objective in any way.


Naah, you're a conservative.

Quote:
If conservatism simply means adherence to tradition, then marriage would be a component of conservatism because marriage is a tradition. So since abortion makes it easy to avoid the consequences of sex outside of marriage abortion strikes a blow against marriage. Thus abortion must be a liberal policy.


Conservatism means adherence to tradition AND the enforcement of these "traditions", i.e. you force everyone to follow your "tradition".

I also believe that people have been having sex outside of marriage LONG before any sort of liberal/conservative line.

Abortion lets somebody get around the consequences of irresponsible sex, regardless of marriage. Married people get the Hoover, too.

Easy solution to all: wrap it and pill it.

Quote:
Again marriage. And do you deny that based on politics, the web and the news media most people who consider themselves to be liberal are in favor of abortion and sodomite marriage while most people who consider themselves to be conservative are opposed to both abortion and sodomite marriage? If there is nothing liberal or conservative about these issues, why do liberals and conservatives believe what they believe about them?


Because conservatives want to force their "tradition" upon others because their 2000 year old book says so. Liberals live and let live.

Quote:
When have I said that either Bush or Reagan were conservative?


Excellent that you chose those two. Shows there was some critical thinking going on Wink

Quote:


Who led us into WWII? Who led us into Vietnam? Surely not conservative Republicans.

Now who is it that does not know history?

Quote:
Has any country ever been attacked when their military is too strong?


Israel. Russia. China. Shall I continue?
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2009 09:54 am
@jeafl cv,
jeafl;63300 wrote:

Has any country ever been attacked when their military is too strong?


Rome :thumbup:
0 Replies
 
 

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