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According to Dipeso?

According to Dipeso he stated while in Mexico that he believe in the genuineness of the discovery, and he only changed his story when he got back to the states with his Evolution buddies. I guess you forgot that part of the story. Did you also forget to mention, that he stated he checked out all 33,000 of the figurines. (AND TO THINK, IT ONLY TOOK HIM 4 HOURS TO DO IT.)
Sloopy science at best. WHICH SIDE OF HIS MOUTH SHOULD WE BELIEVE? LOL. This is the guy you look to for scientific facts?

Did you also forgot to mention that Dr. J. Antonio Hennejon a physician in Guadalajara excavated hundreds of figurines himself as a youth. Porfirio Martinez a prominent accountant in Acambaro with Dr. Swift also excavated them. Carlos Perea the retired Director of Archeology of the Acambaro zone for the Museum of Mexico city recorded all archeological finds from the site.
Charles Hapgood Professor of History and Anthropoplgy at the University of New Hampshire also personally excavated dozens of figurines which included dinosaurs with Earle Stanley Gardner.

Well why mention them, you got Dipeso. The 4 hour wonder.

And did you also forget to mention how in 1972 Arthur Young inventor of the Bell Helocopter submitted two figurines to Dr. Froeloch Rainey, who was the director of the Pennsylvania Museum for Thermoluminescent dating. Numerous test were conducted and dates of 1110 (BC) and 4530 (BC) were returned. Mr. Young received a follow up letter from Dr. Rainey confirming those dates, and in his letter stated that there could be errors of up to 5 or 10%. And he also stated, to confirm those dates were true, they tested each item about 18 times. Dr. Rainey was confident of those dates up until the time he was told the items came from the El Toro Mountain collection. (IT WAS ONLY THEN, THAT THE LAB RETRACTED THEIR THERMOLUMINESCENT) LOL.

Did you also forget to mention that Earle Gardner who was a forenisc pathologist for 20 years from Los Angeles stated that if this collection was faked, you would of been able to see a style that would of been recognizable on the whole collection. Yet, this was not the case.

Really? I want you to point out evidence, papers, studies and methods for EVERYTHING you have said.

And only four hours you say? Odd... now, catch this: The figurines were discovered in 1944. DiPeso's paper was published in 1953. That's a bit more than four hours. Lying again, I see.

Also, here for reading is an actual paper published concerning the inaccurate dating of the figurines: Cookie Absent - Quick and to the point.

The figurines were located in a building in Mexico, DiPeso was in that building for 4 hours, no one is lying. His four hours is what he based his findings on. And when did DiPeso have the figuriens dated? Don't bother to look, he never did. It took others to do that, and when the results came back, he ignored those results. Just as he ignored the testimony of all the others, that confirmed the figurines were from an ancient time. The inaccurat dating was only claimed to be inaccurate, (after the lab found out that the figurines came from El Toro Mountian.)
And why have the believers in evolution not retested the figurines? I will tell you why, because they know that the first dating was accurate, and to do it again would only put the Theory of Evolution in harms way all the more. Thats why.

Your only "evidence" is flimsy at best, meanwhile there is much evidence that contradicts what you say.

Do you have any evidence that isn't suspected of being hoaxes?:dunno:

I'm sorry, but the evidence is overwhelming. The only evidence I get from your people is denials, and denial should not be considered evidence.

In 1955 Charles Hapgood, a professor of history and anthropology at Keene State College of the University of New Hampshire, who was also a self-confessed skeptic went down himself to witness the excavations, after examining the figurines himself, he became a believer.

In 1990 samples of the figurines were retested again by the use of thermoluminescence testing. This was done by Bill Cote and John H. Tierney during the filming of the video, Jurassic Art. The results that came back were around 2,000 B.C. Again, the Evolutionest refused to believe those results.

I might add here that other such discoveries are being found all over the world. And where ever they find such discoveries, you will find Evolutionest and their denials. Denials is what they offer up as evidence.

I'm amazed by how powerful a tool religion is to make people deny science.

It is a bit hypocritical to use radiocarbon, argon, or various other dating techniques to confirm the age of some pottery, yet deny all of the same dating techniques that confirm the age of prehistoric fossils of which are not limited simply to dinosaurs that show that humans were not alive at the same time as prehistoric sauropods. You want to use dating techniques to support the age of some things and not others, you get to pick and choose what you want to believe. Scientists do not have that luxury. It is far more likely that the pottery that was found in isolated and suspicious conditions was hoaxed than the fossils that have been found throughout the world over the last 100 years.

Secondly I'm not even sure how you would date pottery anyway since you would get the actual age of the clay rather than the age the clay was formed to make the pottery.


Also i find your idea of "overwhelming evidence" a bit curious. You consider a few depictions of dinosaurs to be overwhelming evidence yet all of the fossil dating, all of the geologic evidence, all of the DNA evidence, and all of the physiological evidence to be unconvincing!? :dunno:

Furthermore the only possible way for your idea to be true is for either all of the scientists in the world to be completely incompetent morons or for there to be a giant cover-up conspiracy. Neither of which i find very convincing. Not to mention that the few fossil hoaxes that have been debunked where debunked by the evolutionary biologists themselves!



(PS. it's evolutionist not evolutionest)

These don't even look like dinosaurs! How many dinosaurs do you know that have 2 or 3 legs? These are certainly no dinosaurs that i have ever seen....

Well, the very top one is an obvious stegosaurus,

and the very bottom one appears to be on the order of an Apatosaurus.

Not all the figurines are in perfect condition,

and it looks like the bottom one is actually missing one leg, which may be because it was broken in two.

Also, the believers in Evolution rejected the collection, (because they did look like dinosaurs.) If the collection had been of anything else, they would of accepted it with open arms.

Yet, because they did look like dinosaurs, they were forced to rejected it.

OBVIOUS!? Obviously it's not obvious because stegosauruses have 4 legs not 2, and they have spikes on their tails, and they have plates on their backs not spines.





with 3 legs?



for as old as they are supposedly are they should be in pieces, pottery does not last that long in such good condition.



looks like it has 3 legs to me.



no they didn't give a second thought because they were found in suspicious conditions and because they don't really have any historical significance.



Except they don't look dinosaurs, not to anyone know has a knowledge of what dinosaurs looked like. Either way "looks" is not a very scientific way to establish something as absurd as coexistence of humans and dinosaurs.

Even if these were actually from around 2000 B.C (which I don't believe of course) How the hell does the default setting become God exists?

It goes a little something like this,...... Ha! told you those figurines were 4000 years olds, that means there is a God. How does it?:dunno:

Even if you actually manage to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that evolution is not how it happens. How does this then prove there is a GOD?...Because it sure as hell doesn't mate.

As I said to one of your fellow believers, instead of focusing on disproving evolution why not actually try to come up with some evidence that actually proves there is a GOD, so far you have failed to demonstrate this to us.

And I'm amazed at how a few have attempted to debunk the El Toro finds, and how some will listen to them. Yet many who actually saw the excavations will be ignored. And the arguement that these finds are a fraud, will not hold water, because some of the finds from El Toro Mountain have shown us that the figuriens gave examples of dinosaur anatomy that were not even understood by modern science of that time. How could dinsaur anotomy of been duplicated by simple people, when modern science was unaware of that anatomy. If these finds were but a simple fraud, how do you explain that the skeleton of a woolly mammoth, and the teeth from an extinct ice-age horse was also found at the same site. Did those who faked the figurines, throw that in for good measure? Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson was amazed to find a accurate representation of a Brachiosaurus which at the time was almost unknow. In the 1940s and the 1950s the Iguanodon was unknow, yet in the El Toro Collection, was an Iguanodon. It was not until 1978 that an adult skeleton was found. Even if you try and make an arguement for the testing of such figurines, how can you explain how such accurate representations of dinosaure could exist? How could these be a fraud, when the figurines gave examples of dinosaurs, that were yet unknow when they were found?

It appears to me that the back legs may be missing on the top one, because it looks like they might of been there at one time.

As I stated before, not all of these figurienes appear to be in perfect condition as you have claimed.

I have also point out that the three legs was most likely four but the one leg was most likely broken off. The figurine in question has a large crack right down it's center. Far from perfect condition.

Found in suspicious condition? Tell me, when did one of the believers in Evolution (actually come to the excavation site?)

(AND IF THEY DID NOT LOOK LIKE DINOSAURS, WHY ARE EVOLUTIONIST SO UPSET WITH THEM?)

They're ignored because they were found to be frauds. The only people who believe in these things are creationists who refuse to see another piece of "evidence" go swirling down the drain.

"The author spent two days watching the excavators burrow and dig; during the course of their search they managed to break a number of authentic prehistoric objects. On the second day the two struck a cache and the author examined the material in situ. The cache had been very recently buried by digging a down sloping tunnel into the black fill dirt of the prehistoric room. This fill ran to a depth of approximately 1.30 m. Within the stratum there were authentic Tarascan sherds, obsidian blades, tripod metates, manos, etc., but these objects held no concern for the excavators. In burying the cache of figurines, the natives had unwittingly cut some 15 cms. below the black fill into the sterile red earth floor of the prehistoric room. In back-filling the tunnel they mixed this red sterile earth with black earth; the tracing of their original excavation was, as a result, a simple task" (Di Peso 1953, 388).

There are too many arrows pointing at fraud. How do you explain these?

From the picture as far as we can tell there are only 2 legs and it has always been that way, the fact that you impose you vision of what it should look like if it were of a dinosaur tells me a lot.




for something that is supposedly as old as these pottery are claimed to be, then they are in relatively perfect condition, and in such great numbers, tells me they are hoaxes.



there is no evidence of that from the photo. this is something you must impose with your eye so that it fits with your notion.



Oh dang, you exposed our evolution conspiracy! I knew eventually you'd figure out it was just a big conspiracy, you should call the press and let them know of your discovery...



BECAUSE THEY ARE HOAXES! Are you so foolish as to think some pottery is going to overturn DNA evidence? It would take a lot more than some pottery sculptures reminiscent of dinosaurs, scientists don't even see it as a threat.

To many arrows pointing to fraud?

So you have based your entire arguement on one man, DiPeso. And on his opinion from 1953. And even when you have many others who have gone the extra mile, and did multiple testing of the figurines for age, and those test show dates of 1200 B.C. or greater. And we have others who spent months down there confirming these finds. You choose to ignore the vast majority, and believe one man. You believe the one man who only spent four hours looking at the collection, and only two days at the dig site. WOW.

15 years (after DiPeso), Hapgood spent months at the dig site, he discovered dozens of other figurines, and submitted three of them for radiocarbon dating. The testing revealed dates of 1640 B.C. 4530 B.C. and 1110 B.C.
In 1972 Arthur Young submitted two more figurines for testing, and those dates were found to be around 2,700 B.C.

Of the 33,500 figurines, not one of them were the same. Each one was made individually. If this was a fraud, who would of done it? It would of taken years to produce this collection. And it would of taken a great deal of money. And how could they produce a collection that gave dates of 1200 B.C. or greater from Radiocarbon testing? Only your DiPeso, who did not spend the time, and did not professionally investigate the site, proclaims fraud. Others who were more educated, more professional, and did an extensive amount more research than DiPeso, believe the collection to be authentic.

I use to work with clay a lot when I was younger, and based on the pot marks and surface imperfections, it appears that there may of been a leg there at one time. Thats just an observation. There are numerous others in the collection that have been identified by those who have a better understanding of dinsaurs, and body types.

The main man that claims this collection to be a hoax, was a man named DiPeso. He spent four hours looking at the collection, and 2 days at the dig site. His report came out in 1953. Yet others, who years latter did further investigations, and were far more educated, professional, and spent months at the dig site, say this collection is authentic. Also, carbon testing that was done multiple times by Hapgood and Arthur Young showed dates of 1640 B.C. and greater. Those who claim fake, make that claim based on one mans opinion from 1953, and continue to ignore numerous others who later base their belief on a greater body of evidence, and research.

And please tell me, what DNA evidence are you speaking of?