1
   

More Hate Crimes- Hangman's noose found on NYC prof's door

 
 
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 07:00 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42371 wrote:
I oppose ANY law restricting the freedom of speech, including the ones you cited. The second you let the government into regulating speech is the second you have given them carte blanche to do away with any speech they see fit. Your position doesn't mesh with:

a) Common sense.
b) History
c) The US Constitution.


I absolutely endorse freedom of speech....but I oppose "hate speech", and derogatory, or offensive speech....just like you can be arrested for profanity, you, likewise should be arrested for using racial epithets, slurs, or threatening violence...and things like hanging nooses on a tree, burning crosses on a lawn, or wearing KKK garb, ought to be viewed as "hate crimes".
That would be common sense.
And a clear sign that history is not to be repeated.
And right in line with the US Constitution....
We can do without your histronics
Oh...and by the way, I give a rat's booty.
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 07:14 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42343 wrote:
Absolutely.....and Cosby went on to state how is it that a 40-ish woman, from the mid-West, didn't get the significance of the displaying of nooses, publicly.
He stated that it was 'a big deal", and expressed his frustration that people still take incidents like that "so lightly"....like has been expressed in this very forum.
If Cosby said it, then it lends credibility to my argument....as the banner on the screen kept flashing, "beloved and revered TV Dad" (and that wasn't just from black people...)

He and his friend did very well. I think the only unsettling moment was Larry slapping Bill (in a joking manner) with the script. lol
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 07:32 pm
@mlurp,
mlurp;42421 wrote:
He and his friend did very well. I think the only unsettling moment was Larry slapping Bill (in a joking manner) with the script. lol


Well, Bill shouldn't have leaned over the desk, and tried to pull it from him, in the first place...kinda passive-agressive...I think he was trying to usurp the pack leader. Bill is getting kinda curmudgeonly ( no offense Curmudgeon), in his old age.
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 07:47 pm
@aaronssongs,
It was between friend. And that is how I took it. And i believe you did too.
But others might not. Bill has been on Larry King before. And at the same fuctions etc.
I just know it made a lot of sense and I hope both communities of people listen well and learned.
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2007 08:20 pm
@aaronssongs,
Let's try to be reasonable about all this -- not overly sensitive, nor insensitive. If a noose is meant to insult, get rid of it. If not, forget about it.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 12:59 am
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42415 wrote:
I absolutely endorse freedom of speech....but I oppose "hate speech", and derogatory, or offensive speech....just like you can be arrested for profanity, you, likewise should be arrested for using racial epithets, slurs, or threatening violence...and things like hanging nooses on a tree, burning crosses on a lawn, or wearing KKK garb, ought to be viewed as "hate crimes".
That would be common sense.
And a clear sign that history is not to be repeated.
And right in line with the US Constitution....
We can do without your histronics
Oh...and by the way, I give a rat's booty.


Amendment I:
Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


No, your position is not in line with the Constitution, AT ALL. Telling someone what words they can and cannot say is clearly a violation of the first amendment. You're wrong.

Tell me, what happens when the government is empowered to declare certain types of speech "hateful", and they declare anti-war speech "hateful" or "disturbing". What the hell do we do then?

The pinkos have taken away our access to arms parity with the military, so we can't fight our government.

The fascists have taken away our privacy, so we can't hide from the government.

Now you want to take away our right to speak out against the government.

Bullshit. All speech must be unrestricted, even if it makes you sad. Living in a free society requires courage and backbone, and your ideology of declaring certain words unlawful is DANGEROUS to liberty. How can you not see this?

GW Bush and company assured us the PATRIOT and the NSA wire-taps would only be used to spy on foreigners, and yet we have EVIDENCE and court cases, of the government spying on and detaining Americans. How can you possibly trust these people with your right to speak your mind? It's lunacy.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 08:36 am
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42486 wrote:
Amendment I:


No, your position is not in line with the Constitution, AT ALL. Telling someone what words they can and cannot say is clearly a violation of the first amendment. You're wrong.

Tell me, what happens when the government is empowered to declare certain types of speech "hateful", and they declare anti-war speech "hateful" or "disturbing". What the hell do we do then?

The pinkos have taken away our access to arms parity with the military, so we can't fight our government.

The fascists have taken away our privacy, so we can't hide from the government.

Now you want to take away our right to speak out against the government.

Bull****. All speech must be unrestricted, even if it makes you sad. Living in a free society requires courage and backbone, and your ideology of declaring certain words unlawful is DANGEROUS to liberty. How can you not see this?

GW Bush and company assured us the PATRIOT and the NSA wire-taps would only be used to spy on foreigners, and yet we have EVIDENCE and court cases, of the government spying on and detaining Americans. How can you possibly trust these people with your right to speak your mind? It's lunacy.


Really! The histrionics are really out of place, and way over the top.


Defamation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Slander and libel)




"Slander" and "Libel" redirect here. For other uses, see Slander (disambiguation) and Libel (disambiguation).
For "liable", see Liability.

In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.

"Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 10:38 am
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42489 wrote:
Really! The histrionics are really out of place, and way over the top.


Defamation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Slander and libel)




"Slander" and "Libel" redirect here. For other uses, see Slander (disambiguation) and Libel (disambiguation).
For "liable", see Liability.

In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.

"Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.


You don't understand Constitutional law at all do you?

The Constitution trumps all federal statutes, resolutions, state laws, and county ordinances in terms of supremacy. It doesn't matter what the laws says about libel or slander because the Constitution guarantees a citizen's right to speak.

Now, a case COULD be made that states have the right to censor speech, because First Amendment only says that Congress (denoting the federal Congress) shall make no law. Most state constitutions are copies of the US Constitution though, and so most state legislatures are similarly bound.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 11:14 am
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42490 wrote:
You don't understand Constitutional law at all do you?

The Constitution trumps all federal statutes, resolutions, state laws, and county ordinances in terms of supremacy. It doesn't matter what the laws says about libel or slander because the Constitution guarantees a citizen's right to speak.

Now, a case COULD be made that states have the right to censor speech, because First Amendment only says that Congress (denoting the federal Congress) shall make no law. Most state constitutions are copies of the US Constitution though, and so most state legislatures are similarly bound.




Freeman,
I'm really not feeling you, as I'm not appreciating the tone you're taking.
I don't give a good gahoot about your point of view...it's wrong to use offensive language, as "home training" should come into play....if you ain't got none, then all bets are off, and they should haul your posterior off to jail, for saying racial epithets, slurs, or the like...perhaps then, you will curb your tongue next time out.
I don't think anybody should be able to say anything anytime that they want to. If you can't exercise common sense, etiquette, respect, or decency, then a day or two in the slammer might help you. Some people are "hauled off" for far less.
If we need to enact changes to the Constitution to support this view, then, perhaps we should. It's about time for a new Amendment, don't you think?
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 06:03 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42491 wrote:
Freeman,
I'm really not feeling you, as I'm not appreciating the tone you're taking.
I don't give a good gahoot about your point of view...it's wrong to use offensive language, as "home training" should come into play....if you ain't got none, then all bets are off, and they should haul your posterior off to jail, for saying racial epithets, slurs, or the like...perhaps then, you will curb your tongue next time out.
I don't think anybody should be able to say anything anytime that they want to. If you can't exercise common sense, etiquette, respect, or decency, then a day or two in the slammer might help you. Some people are "hauled off" for far less.
If we need to enact changes to the Constitution to support this view, then, perhaps we should. It's about time for a new Amendment, don't you think?


No, we don't need any new amendments, and your thoughts on this issue are truly disturbing. Who defines "common sense" and what is and is not "hateful"? You would be allowing a government, proven to be corrupt, the power to dictate acceptable speech and thought. This is the road to tyranny.
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2007 06:37 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;42450 wrote:
Let's try to be reasonable about all this -- not overly sensitive, nor insensitive. If a noose is meant to insult, get rid of it. If not, forget about it.

That my friend considering America's history as short as it is seeing with blinders on. But ones opinion is allowed.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 04:06 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42512 wrote:
No, we don't need any new amendments, and your thoughts on this issue are truly disturbing. Who defines "common sense" and what is and is not "hateful"? You would be allowing a government, proven to be corrupt, the power to dictate acceptable speech and thought. This is the road to tyranny.


I'd sooner have tyranny than to have to endure types like you.
You're what's disturbing. For you not to understand the significance of "hanging a noose" in public, which is tantamount to having Jews wear a yellow star of David on their person, and how it overshadows anything that the Jena 6 is accused of doing....well, we've already gone "there", to no avail....there is a divide that won't soon be resolved.
A government that doesn't protect its' people from destructive elements and thought, is not a government worth defending, let alone, tolerating.
Who defines "common sense", indeed! If there was any, it wouldn't need to be defined. As it stands, it's been thrown out the window....with the baby.
Why don't you get your sheet ready for Halloween...but keep in mind, the next day is All Saints.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 04:29 pm
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42639 wrote:
I'd sooner have tyranny than to have to endure types like you.
You're what's disturbing. For you not to understand the significance of "hanging a noose" in public, which is tantamount to having Jews wear a yellow star of David on their person, and how it overshadows anything that the Jena 6 is accused of doing....well, we've already gone "there", to no avail....there is a divide that won't soon be resolved.
A government that doesn't protect its' people from destructive elements and thought, is not a government worth defending, let alone, tolerating.
Who defines "common sense", indeed! If there was any, it wouldn't need to be defined. As it stands, it's been thrown out the window....with the baby.
Why don't you get your sheet ready for Halloween...but keep in mind, the next day is All Saints.


Your judgement is so very clouded with hatred for those with whom you take issue. If you would really rather have tyranny than a handful of racists, you're less an American than Castro.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 05:22 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42641 wrote:
Your judgement is so very clouded with hatred for those with whom you take issue. If you would really rather have tyranny than a handful of racists, you're less an American than Castro.


Coming from you...that's a compliment. Simple. I hate "hate"....I have love for everyone...including you. But, you can't help yourself...you're just "drawn" that way.
But, what would the tyranny be? Freedom from "hate speech"....people being respectful of one another? People thinking before anything falls out of their mouths? Excuse me...but I'd rather have that than the Amerikka you suggest, where people are free to intimidate with nooses hanging from trees, or calling each other everything but a child of God...it's 2008, for godssake. Not 1930. In Alabama or Mississippi. Geez.
And you wouldn't be the one to determine how American I am. Not quite sure just who you think you are.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 06:59 pm
@mlurp,
mlurp;42518 wrote:
That my friend considering America's history as short as it is seeing with blinders on. But ones opinion is allowed.


Hey, thanks, man. I was afraid you might suppress my opinion. Are you too a moderator?
briansol
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 07:06 pm
@aaronssongs,
only Cam and I are moderators.
0 Replies
 
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2007 09:32 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;42653 wrote:
Hey, thanks, man. I was afraid you might suppress my opinion. Are you too a moderator?
Looool no just a real human being that has opinions and concerns. I do try to keep to the middle of the road but some to the right or left when it makes sense. No one group has the answer (shusssss don't let others hear that lol) as some believe.
0 Replies
 
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Oct, 2007 02:10 am
@aaronssongs,
aaronssongs;42644 wrote:
Coming from you...that's a compliment. Simple. I hate "hate"....I have love for everyone...including you. But, you can't help yourself...you're just "drawn" that way.
But, what would the tyranny be? Freedom from "hate speech"....people being respectful of one another? People thinking before anything falls out of their mouths? Excuse me...but I'd rather have that than the Amerikka you suggest, where people are free to intimidate with nooses hanging from trees, or calling each other everything but a child of God...it's 2008, for godssake. Not 1930. In Alabama or Mississippi. Geez.
And you wouldn't be the one to determine how American I am. Not quite sure just who you think you are.


You haven't thought this through, AT ALL.

If you permit the government to ban hate speech, you open the flood gates for other legislation (much like FISA paved the way for PATRIOT) that isn't necessarily what you wanted. The authority you give your government doesn't just go away once they solve what you see as a problem, they retain it. What happens if your ideology fails to win a majority in the Congress? Now you've got a philisophically dissimilar congress with the authority to dictate what speech is acceptable. For all you know, you might find yourself being fined or locked up for speaking out against a war somewhere, or calling a public official an idiot (even if he is). How do you not see the incredible risk here?

And for what? You think tougher laws will stop racism? Racism is learned through the process of socialization, and only through alternate socialization can you hope to do away with it. Laws and social engineering won't work, and often only serve to heighten tensions (see Boston Bus riots for an example). I support the path of Dr. King; use nonforceful means to persuade your adversary of your position. I wouldn't have put up with the fire hoses and dogs, but that's why my birthday isn't a national holiday.

We currently have laws against consuming and selling drugs yes? The leading cause of incarceration is what? Most violent crimes are related to what? Laws don't stop crime, and they certainly don't change public opinion. The Black Panthers aren't going to start liking white people just because the government says they can't say "white-boy", and neither will the klan up and fund the NAACP because "coon" comes with a hefty fine. If anything, your plan will HEIGHTEn racial tensions by hammering home this idea that skin color matters.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Oct, 2007 08:13 am
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;42686 wrote:
You haven't thought this through, AT ALL.

If you permit the government to ban hate speech, you open the flood gates for other legislation (much like FISA paved the way for PATRIOT) that isn't necessarily what you wanted. The authority you give your government doesn't just go away once they solve what you see as a problem, they retain it. What happens if your ideology fails to win a majority in the Congress? Now you've got a philisophically dissimilar congress with the authority to dictate what speech is acceptable. For all you know, you might find yourself being fined or locked up for speaking out against a war somewhere, or calling a public official an idiot (even if he is). How do you not see the incredible risk here?

Absolutely ridiculous...if one buys your argument, then one must buy the argument that using marijuana paves the way to cocaine and heroin. It doesn't.
There are laws against certain kinds of speech, already. One cannot threaten the president with bodily harm. Doesn't seem to get in the way of calling him "an idiot", does it?
And restricting one's use of offensive language (read: racial epithets) cannot be equated with "speaking one's own mind" about the merits of not going to war, or speaking out against a war, official or unofficial, unless your logic is skewed. No risk, just the application of "common sense", a commodity sorely lacking these days.



And for what? You think tougher laws will stop racism? Racism is learned through the process of socialization, and only through alternate socialization can you hope to do away with it. Laws and social engineering won't work, and often only serve to heighten tensions (see Boston Bus riots for an example). I support the path of Dr. King; use nonforceful means to persuade your adversary of your position. I wouldn't have put up with the fire hoses and dogs, but that's why my birthday isn't a national holiday.


Again, absolutely ridiculous assertions.
Racism isn't something learned "through the process of socialization". You speak as though you were from another planet. Racism is taught , at "home". It is "learned behavior". You ever see "kids", under 5 years old, in a sandbox...???? They play together, all races...and seem to get along, quite nicely...until the adults show up.
Laws and social engineering don't work??? I attended inner city public school in Chicago. My 3rd grade class had children of all races, and backgrounds ( I have the picture to prove it). I could go further, but it would only emphasize the obvious...you're wrong, on all counts.
And given your cavalier attitude concerning the Jena 6, and your failure to acknowledge the culpability of the 'white students', I find your referencing MLK, extremely offensive and reprehensible. I imagine the white students followed your suggestion, of using a "nonforceful (as you put it), but highly effective, and not-so-subtle approach to indicating to the black students to "back off their tree". And your birthday is not a national holiday for various and sundry reasons, other than the one you listed.

We currently have laws against consuming and selling drugs yes? The leading cause of incarceration is what? Most violent crimes are related to what? Laws don't stop crime, and they certainly don't change public opinion.

No, laws don't stop crime...but they make sure, in most cases, that justice is served. And we all know that Roe V. Wade, didn't change public opinion or perception. What planet did you say you were from?


The Black Panthers aren't going to start liking white people just because the government says they can't say "white-boy", and neither will the klan up and fund the NAACP because "coon" comes with a hefty fine. If anything, your plan will HEIGHTEn racial tensions by hammering home this idea that skin color matters.


The equivalent of "white-boy", is "black boy"....there is nothing in the lexicon on the same visceral level as the "N" word, except maybe the word, "coon", which you had no problem referencing.
The Black Panthers are defunct, so your point becomes "moot"...Afro-centric groups, bent on producing social change today, are much more sophisticated and media-savvy, than those of yesteryear. They are more likely to be connected to those "in power", and better understand the value of "the vote", and voting in ones' best interest.
Racial tensions are heightened by the simple fact that, in America, contrary to the hope of a utopia, it's "still America", and skin color, and race "do matter".
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Oct, 2007 11:06 am
@aaronssongs,
If common sense is so lacking, why then do you suppose our government would have it? I am not equating the two forms of speech, I am simply saying that when your ideology is not dominant in Congress, you risk laws restricting your speech. You did not address the FACT that FISA was a direct influence on the creation of PATRIOT, which of course is more sweeping and unconstitutional than FISA could ever hope to be. The first federal automatic weapons bans in the 1930's have led to magazine restrictions on pistols, and the criminalization of cocaine and marijuana led to the criminalization of other drugs. My point has historical validation. You chose instead to create a strawman, and it points to the lack of substance in your argument.

Socialization begins at home when the kid first starts talking and understanding others. If the parents teach their child to hate, and the family home is an atmosphere of racism, the child will more than likely turn out racist. No quantity of laws and no effort of social engineering will change this fact.

I'm going to use MLK as an example because he, unlike yourself, shared with this country the idea that skin color doesn't matter, AT ALL. You don't own him because you're black, nor because I support punishment for a group of SIX who attacked a group of ONE. Again, you are being intellectually dishonest by stating that I SUPPORT the white student involved, I don't. I support justice, and under the law he committed no crime (I swear to god if you mention the SEPERATE, TWO-DAYS BEFOREHAND, DIFFERENT KID shotgun incident as a crime he committed, I am just going to lose it. Different day, white kid, and number of black kids). No matter how damaging it is to your position of indignation, the principal sought to have the noose-hangers expelled, but was overruled by the Superindendent, possibly out of anti-black sentiment, possibly out of the impossibility of proving they actually hung the nooses (if they just "show up", there isn't any evidence without a confession, which is always suspect from a minor). In the case of at least two of the six assailants, we know they had violent prior convictions and we know they attacked the student during the Jena Six incident despite their victim having nothing to do with the noose-hangings.

I support JUSTICE and FREEDOM. Just because you don't like an opinion doesn't mean you have the right to silence it. I suppose you support laws that criminalize advocating the violent overthrow of the government too (despite our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Amendments all being designed to HELP with such a measure)? Speech can only harm someone if the target of the speech allows it to hurt them, and therefore does not violate the right to life, liberty, or property of any individual, and therefore, must remain unrestricted. My argument is morally, logically, intellectually, and most importantly CONSTITUTIONALLY sound. Your argument is strawman-based emotional nonsense derived from the fact that YOU'RE BLACK. Of course you want hate speech gone, it offends you. I'd like rap music and heavy metal style music banned, I hate that garbage and think it's bad for America's youth. I however am smart enough to know that if we give the government the power to censor, they will not stop. Living in a free society requires a backbone, I suggest you grow one.

Skin color and race only matter so long as we continue to treat minorities differently from others. Affirmative Action, hate crime laws, and public assistance programs only further tensions between races because the GOVERNMENT is TELLING them that they're DIFFERENT. If you want equality, you have you accept EQUALITY. No preference to minorities, no race indicator on job applications or tests, and no more laws making using racially-charged thoughts illegal. You're only perpetuating racism by maintaining this idea that we're all different.

If you kill somebody intentionally, it should be the same crime whether you killed them for their wallet or because they were gay.
 

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