Can Muslims be good Americans?

Pinochet, we couldn't expect any other view point from you. Good to have you back.

No, radical fundamentalist did, not just muslims. According to your statement christians burned crosses and lynched black people back in the day too.

No, radical fundamentalist did, not just muslims. According to your statement christians burned crosses and lynched black people back in the day too.

92Bravo, I see you still hate America. Why haven't you moved to Iran yet?:banghead::afro::afro::afro::banghead:

whatever...what's with you noose thingy are you contemplating suicide or something?

You should just kill yourself, your hate is destroying you inside. You're an ignorant bigot that doesn't deserve to breathe American air.

Tulip, Dranile likes to put things like nooses in his avatars because he knows that it annoys our black membership, he thinks it's funny, or cool or something.

We've had all these "vices" from time immemorial since the homo sapien evolved. The bible could do nothing much about it in the past nor can it now. A good education however can. Teaching children science so they understand disease, health, taking care of themselves and others. Allowing them to think instead of bearing down on them.

Anyway, enough said. You claimed I was doctoring history and I refuted it. You have not responded to that so I assume you agree that I was not re-writing history which does not mean you agree with my view point, which is fine with me.

We've had a good discussion.

Thanks

We had all these vices in the past? Really. So your telling me before 1962 we were aborting one million children a year. Give me a break. Do you not remember the sexual revolution from the 60s. Do you not remember how they use to say that the Bible was holding back our progressive society, and it was time to forget about those old fashion Biblical values. Well we did, and now we have all this new crap to deal with. The Bible taught us that sex in the marriage was sacred. Todays schools are teaching are children it's just a simple plumbing problem. Allowing them to think means that as long as the boys use a condom you can have sex with whoever you want, because if it feels good, do it. Is that the message we need to be sending to our children. For years the Bible lifted up the standard even for the general population, today there are no standards. And this is exactly why we have the spread of so many of the social ills. Here again you are trying to rewrite history. I lived back then, and there was a time when most kids thought of having sex after they were married. Today it is sex first, and marriage is not necessary. And this is what this morally depraved society has pass on to it's children.

You Sir, again accuse me of re-writing history. The first time was over the matter of our founding fathers. I responded and you choose not to respond to my specifics on Jefferson, the Jeffersonian Bible and his aversion to the Bible as it was written. By providing those facts I refuted your allegation that I was re-writing history. Now you need to either refute what I say or accept it. Instead you, like a true demagague, keep repeating the lie as it it is the truth. Not cool.

Now regarding abortion. Please read as below and respond to the specifics that refute your claim on their not being abortions prior to its legalization. You may have lived in those times Sir, but you were, as you are now, ill-informed.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal in nearly two-thirds of the states except in cases where it was necessary to save the life of the mother. In those states it was legal, it was only available under very limited circumstances. Women who wanted to terminate their pregnancy often sought illegal, back-alley abortions. It is estimated that before 1973, 1.2 million women resorted to illegal abortion yearly and that botched illegal abortions caused as many as 5,000 deaths a year (NARAL). During this period, illegal abortions were often performed by an untrained physician in unsanitary conditions using primitive methods (NAF).

When we were talking about our founding fathers you quoted Thomas Jefferson, and his rewritten Bible, yet even his rewritten Bible would be outlawed in the public school system today. And you would be the first one at the door to pull it out of the hand of the first kid that tried to bring it into the classroom. You didn't refute anything, other than Jefferson not likeing certain parts of the Bible. And without a doubt, Jefferson was overwhelmingly voted down by greater numbers of founding fathers. So it is obvious that a greater number of founding fathers wanted the name Jesus Christ even
even if Jefferson did not. I'm not a demagague, I'm just stateing the obvious.

The statistics of legal abortions I have from 1973 is said to be 744,600 and that number doubled about six years later. So I doubt less woman started having abortions when abortion became legal. And the 5,000 deaths from botch back alley abortions that was floated by planned parenthood's amicus brief is a bogus "fact." Those numbers came from either Lawrence "Larry" Lader or some other late 1960's early 1970's abortion guru. In the case of the 5,000 the orginal source was a book-- Abortion, Spontaneous and Induced--published in 1936 by Dr. Frederick Taussig, a leading proponent of legalization of abortion. He took a guess at a mortality rate, multiplied by his strangely generated estimate of how many criminal abortions were taking place, and presto! A myth is born! Taussig six years later rejected his own faulty calculations. Yet we still see that number used today to support legal abortion. From 1940 through 1970, abortion mortality fell from nearly 1,500 to a little over 100.

The Truth of Pre-Roe Abortion Mortality - Pro Life Views

1) It was Patrick Henry who was voted down. Not Jefferson. Patrick Henry wanted to replace "Universal Creator" with Jesus Christ and the founding fathers overwhelmingly rejected that. Please read my original post again and if you are suspicious of the fact, please verify it elsewhere.

2) The pre-legalization abortion statistics in the USA match the story elsewhere. The same thing happened in Europe, India and elewhere. Legalization of abortion was the best thing that happened to women's health care whether we like it or not. But I am impressed with your statistics. The purpose of this debate is not you & I yelling at each other but you & I bringing forth meaningful information to educate those reading this, on both points of view. I intend to study your staistics carefully to grow my knowledge. Thank you for taking the trouble.

Regards.

Quote:
Originally stated by Tulip
whatever...what's with you noose thingy are you contemplating suicide or something?

It's the preffered method for white folk.

The fact of the matter is we may be just talking about the difference between apples and oranges here. Back then there was no talk of banning the Bible or prayer from the public schools. The whole arguement rested at best on using the name Jesus Christ or God Almighty. Either or would of been fine with me. Yet we have come a long way from what the founding fathers were talking about. The question of Bible reading or prayer in the schools did not hit the flash point until Madalyn Murry O'Hair brought the matter before the American Supreme Court in 1963. It was then when the court voted 8-1 in her favor, and for the first time in American's history, public prayer and Bible reading was effectively banned. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the founder of American Atheists, and spent years making fun of God and Christians. In August 27, 1995 Madalyn Murray, Jon Garth, and Robin Murray O'Hair disappeared from the headquarters of American Atheists. Later it turned out that all of them, had been murdered by David Roland Waters. As an interesting side note, from the day David Roland Waters was sentenced to the day he died, Roland Waters spent 666 days being incarcerated (the 666th day being the day he died in prison). Evil does attrack evil.

Legalization of abortion was the best thing to happen for womans health?

Joan Appleton was an abortion advocate with N.O.W. and head nurse at a Virginia abortion facility. She asked herself why abortion was "such a psychological trauma for a woman, and such a difficult decision for a woman to make, if it was a natural thing to do. If it was so right, why was it so difficult?''

Appleton said to herself, "I counseled these women so well; they were so sure of their decision. WHY ARE THEY COMING BACK NOW-MONTHS AND YEARS LATER-PSYCHOLOGICAL WRECKS?"*

I won't comment on the 666 stuff. You need to consult someone my friend. Seriously.

However, I simply have to agree with you totally & unequivocally that abortion is amongst the most trumatic things to happen to a women. It should not be taken lightly. But I doubt any woman takes it lightly. Say "abortion" to any woman of any woman and she'll feel it in her gut.

I detest abortion. As I detest any invasion of the human body or mind.

But my reasons are moral, scientific and rationale. Religion has nothing to do with it. I do not oppose abortion because some ignorant person claims that a nascent coming together of cells constitutes a living being.

The reason early abortion need not and should not be banned is because it is bets left to the woman to decide were she wants to go with her conception and to her doctor to decide what is best for her health. It is not an easy decision and she will do what is best for her as will her doctor. I will trust her decision and her doctors, rather than have it left to some book frozen in time or to the state.

So just because the Bible mentions 666 being of the Devil, and I mention that as a side note, now I need to consult someone. Do you feel that way with all people who give you truthful facts that oppose your world view.

And if the Bible is frozen in time, why does it know the future?

I apologize. That was rude of me.

However, the bible does not know the future. Just as the Koran does not know science.

However, you are entitled to believe it does. But I am afraid you cannot use it as "proof" for claims you may make.

The Bible has been written by men who have written it to ensure that prophecies are "met" based on their post de facto knowledge of the event. Sorry Sir, but that is the hard truth.

over 2,000 years ago men of the Bible spoke of Jerusalems East Gate. They said that Gate would have a Porch Gate, and that Gate would be sealed, and all attempts to open that Gate would fail. Now in Jerusalem today there is a Porch Gate that was built on top of the Old East Gate. The Porch Gate was built by non believers, and it is sealed, just as the Bible said it would be. Two attempts to break through the Gate have failed, and again just as the Bible said they would. Those who wrote this prophecy have been dead for over two thousand years, how could these men have known that thousands of years later such a Gate would of been built over the Old East Gate? And how did they know that the New Porch Gate would be sealed up? And how did they know that all attempts to open it would fail?

Sorry Sir, but that is the hard truth.