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Obama suspends Habius Corpus at GITMO

 
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 04:51 am
Yup

In a recent executive order Obama attempted to stop legal proceedings against a terror suspect in the 2000 Bombing of the USS Cole docked at Yemen

Military Judge Refuses to Halt Trial of USS Cole Bombing Suspect - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

Looks like the judge is telling Obama he's not complying, and for good reason

The US Supreme court has already ruled on matters of this time, infact just last year.

Boumediene v. Bush, 553 U.S. ___ (2008)
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,035 • Replies: 12
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Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 05:47 am
@Silverchild79,
Wow, never knew Habeas Corpus was reinstated... or mattered to the Right.

After an eight year binge, the drunken sailors sober up.

And they found the Constitution again!

However I do find it funny that THIS is brought up, while all the others who have been held without said relief are ignored... even those who have been tortured (psst, can't prosecute 'em) or held with apparently little to no evidence. Also it bears noting that this is being delayed to start proceedings to close Gitmo, meaning that these guys will have to be processed this year... instead of being held for... remind us all how long, please.

Funny.


EDIT: Waitaminit... wasn't it you that said HC doesn't apply to them because they are not American Citizens (which I do remember being brought up by the prev. administration as a reason)?

EDIT x2: Are you also admitting that W violated the Constitution?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:00 am
@Silverchild79,
I said they weren't entitled to Habeas Corpus or protection under the Geneva conventions as they are unlawful combatants

It was actually this exact supreme court ruling, handed down just last year, which overturned the standing precedent involving habeas corpus.

You were quite clear when bush was i office, you felt when the president does stuff like this he should be prosecuted did you not? We all heard you say it multiple times.

So here it is in black and white, reduced to the lowest common denominator. The Executive order was illegal, plain as day. WIll you stick to your guns and defend habeas corpus, or will you reveal yourself to the world as nothing more then a liberal ideologue? Your choice
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:08 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;63650 wrote:
I said they weren't entitled to Habeas Corpus or protection under the Geneva conventions as they are unlawful combatants


So are they or are they not?

Quote:
It was actually this exact supreme court ruling, handed down just last year, which overturned the standing precedent involving habeas corpus.


After the culmination of nearly seven years of detention without due process.

Quote:
You were quite clear when bush was i office, you felt when the president does stuff like this he should be prosecuted did you not? We all heard you say it multiple times.


And guess what the Supreme Court did? Did W comply? I'm decidifying not.

Quote:
So here it is in black and white, reduced to the lowest common denominator. The Executive order was illegal, plain as day. WIll you stick to your guns and defend habeas corpus, or will you reveal yourself to the world as nothing more then a liberal ideologue? Your choice


Obama signed an order to close Gitmo and this delay (nowhere is it said this suspends HC, even in the article) is to move that process along. The ruling you point out was the result of attempts to stifle due process.

120 days is paltry compared to 7 years. Not to mention this delay is required to find the paperwork to process these people which the previous administration didn't keep track of, as admitted by prosecutors. Remember, without said evidence, no prosecution or conviction can take place. So... do we take the time to do it right (legal), hold them indefinitely (illegal) or do we just let them go because they can't be processed legally (where's the evidence?). This is the result of the previous administration, had they done their jobs properly instead of erecting a gulag, the extra 120 days would not be needed.

Again I ask, are you admitting that W violated the Constitution? Stick to your guns or reveal the conservative ideologue Wink
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:12 am
@Silverchild79,
One more thing to ask... why were the other twenty or so requests granted almost immediately, but this one was held off? Could it have to do with torture? I'm decidifying so again!

Didn't a judge also suspend the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for the same 120 days, for the same reason? Your opinion of this judge?
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:20 am
@Silverchild79,
Or your killing me man lol, you don't actually think I'm going to believe you didn't understand me. Alright, let me break this down to yo nice and slow

Habeas Corpus and the Geneva conventions, by law and legal precedent, were not extended to terror suspects (unlawful combatants) until 2008. There, as mentioned above, the Supreme Court of the USA ruled that in fact Habeas Corpus did extend to the prisoners. No change was made on Geneva because it's outside the jurisdiction of the USA.

This meant that from the moment that was handed down, GITMO detainees were entitled to due process. At that point prosecutes began filing charges and many detainees, who were deemed "not a threat" were processed for release as the Government didn't have enough to build a case against them. It, just as any other Supreme Court ruling, is not retro active. This means that what happened for the last seven years could not be considered illegal. You cannot prosecute somebody for breaking a law or violating a legal precedent which should have been in place, but was not.

Obama's executive order, as detailed above, is a violation of Habeas Corpus, now (by way of that supreme court ruling) extended to GITMO detainees.

You're argument about "Bush did it for seven years so I think it's okay if Obama does it for 120 days" is legally incorrect.

If you cannot understand that you need to get off the computer and take a US government class. You're not arguing the enforcement of the law, you're arguing the enforcement of what you want the law to be.
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:23 am
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;63652 wrote:
Didn't a judge also suspend the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for the same 120 days, for the same reason? Your opinion of this judge?


For clarification: It is legal for the Judaical Branch to postpone proceedings, this happens all the time. The Judge is a member of the Judaical Branch with the authority to do so. The president, as per the supreme court ruling above, may not due the same under any circumstances.

Is this all you got man, this is elementary level US government stuff
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:39 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;63653 wrote:
Or your killing me man lol, you don't actually think I'm going to believe you didn't understand me. Alright, let me break this down to yo nice and slow

Habeas Corpus and the Geneva conventions, by law and legal precedent, were not extended to terror suspects (unlawful combatants) until 2008. There, as mentioned above, the Supreme Court of the USA ruled that in fact Habeas Corpus did extend to the prisoners. No change was made on Geneva because it's outside the jurisdiction of the USA.


Unlawful Combatants = ConservaSpeak... See: Military Commissions Act.

Quote:
This meant that from the moment that was handed down, GITMO detainees were entitled to due process. At that point prosecutes began filing charges and many detainees, who were deemed "not a threat" were processed for release as the Government didn't have enough to build a case against them. It, just as any other Supreme Court ruling, is not retro active. This means that what happened for the last seven years could not be considered illegal. You cannot prosecute somebody for breaking a law or violating a legal precedent which should have been in place, but was not.


It also means that the administration was violating the Constitution. Why else would the case be brought up? The SCOTUS decided that the admin was in fact violating the Constitution. See: Military Commissions Act.

Quote:
Obama's executive order, as detailed above, is a violation of Habeas Corpus, now (by way of that supreme court ruling) extended to GITMO detainees.

You're argument about "Bush did it for seven years so I think it's okay if Obama does it for 120 days" is legally incorrect.

If you cannot understand that you need to get off the computer and take a US government class. You're not arguing the enforcement of the law, you're arguing the enforcement of what you want the law to be.


Here's the trick: This is not being done to hold the detainees. That's the distinction you miss, and the one that invalidates your claim.

The Military Commissions Act (it's that again!) was an unconstitutional violation of detainee's rights, specifically Habeas Corpus. Funny enough, this Act was put in place because... detainees' rights were being violated, specifically Habeas Corpus.

Read the MCA. Also see Hamdan v Rumsfeld.
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:40 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;63654 wrote:
For clarification: It is legal for the Judaical Branch to postpone proceedings, this happens all the time. The Judge is a member of the Judaical Branch with the authority to do so. The president, as per the supreme court ruling above, may not due the same under any circumstances.

Is this all you got man, this is elementary level US government stuff


So why's the Pentagon saying that the Judge will be following Obama's executive order to suspend the above mentioned trial?

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Thursday that Pohl would soon be told to comply with Obama's executive order.

"All I can really tell you is that this department will be in full compliance with the president's executive order," Morrell said at a news briefing. "There is no ifs, ands or buts about that."
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:49 am
@Silverchild79,
he'll be told to, doesn't mean he will

Having a Supreme Court ruling less then a year old in your favor is pretty good insurance

"Unlawful Combatant" is a term that originates from the Geneva conventions and our LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict), it predates the military commissions act by decades.

Sorry but everything I'm hearing is either a misinterpretation of the law, or ignorant of the law all together.

I'll ask you again, are you pro habeas corpus, or do you stand with Obama. You seem to not want to touch that with a 10 ft pole
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:53 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;63658 wrote:
he'll be told to, doesn't mean he will

Having a Supreme Court ruling less then a year old in your favor is pretty good insurance


Let the battle begin.

Quote:
"Unlawful Combatant" is a term that originates from the Geneva conventions and our LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict), it predates the military commissions act by decades.


And it also says that they are entitled to due process and proper treatment. Which of these have they received?

Quote:
Sorry but everything I'm hearing is either a misinterpretation of the law, or ignorant of the law all together.


You think W didn't violate the Constitution. HIS OWN BILL was ruled to violate it. Now who's the ignorant one?

Quote:
I'll ask you again, are you pro habeas corpus, or do you stand with Obama. You seem to not want to touch that with a 10 ft pole


I'm pro HC, but you've simply sensationalized a headline without any hard evidence or legal pursuance towards that fact. You've just taken a Fox headline (heavily edited, I recommend the BBC story) and claimed he violates HC.

I will ask you again too, are you admitting that W's actions were a violation of the Constitution?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 07:14 am
@Silverchild79,
No I do not

Water Boarding, as a form of interrogation, has not been legally classified as Torture. Some believe it is, some believe it isn't, but it was done after conferring with the Attorney General.

Once the Supreme Court handed down the aforementioned ruling Bush complied. I'll say it again since you brought it up again it was not retroactive.

Obama's Executive order occurred after the Supreme Court had ruled on the Executive offices capacity to effect Habeas Corpus. By definition that makes the executive order illegal.

It's interesting to note that Obama didn't stop waterboarding permanently, he ceased it saying "The Army field manual should be used" but here's the kicker

the order said the government reserved the right to "use aggressive techniques in the future, provided they are sanctioned by the attorney general"

The bass tacks of this is that water boarding is stopped for now, but according to Obama's own order he reserves the right to start again tomorrow.

All this aside, I like how you're attempting to derail my argument by invoking the name of "W".

Whatever Bush did has nothing to do with the fact that the Executive order is unconstitutional, end of story.
0 Replies
 
socalgolfguy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:08 am
@Silverchild79,
I see that the SAB man still prefers to blind people with insults and little fatal is in lockstep.
0 Replies
 
 

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