AP: Troop and Civilain casualties contiue to fall!

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for all you conditional reality fans here, this was from the AP

Military, civilian deaths fall in Iraq

[quote]"I've never been more optimistic than I am right now with the progress we've made in Iraq. The only people who are going to win this counterinsurgency project are the people of Iraq. We've said that all along. And now they're coming forward in masses," [/quote]

-Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch; 3rd Infantry Division

the surge continues to work, we cans still win and those on the ground know it.

It up the good fight, come home with victory

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;43880 wrote:

for all you conditional reality fans here, this was from the AP

Military, civilian deaths fall in Iraq

-Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch; 3rd Infantry Division

the surge continues to work, we cans still win and those on the ground know it.

It up the good fight, come home with victory

Cool, down to ONLY 4000 Iraqi's losing there lives in Bagdad in the last 3 months.

Well I am glad you can now sleep easier in your bed tonight.

1 Reply

@Silverchild79,

I understand the reason for war, and everything, but it was an interesting point brought up by the Dali Lama that if the US had reacted by pouring the billions of dollars into decreasing the poverty and increasing education, hygene, health care etc. with the money the people would have been honoring the US and aligned countries. The reason their is no trust, and therefore dialogue has been basically useless, is because the US and aligned countries, are at a higher level of knowledge, education, understanding, integrity, and are not fearing that their children might be killed in with the next crazy suicide bomb person.
The ignorant greed of those who are put in the leadership roles, such as Ah-am-a-mad-jihad, is so into living a life of wealth at the expense of those who put him in office, and such people will make a deal, all while laughing behind their hands.
Can Iran act with integrity and honor, nope, they just know the way they have been taught, which is make a deal and then change you mind according to the greatest profit to your personal swiss bank account.

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@Numpty,

Numpty;44726 wrote:

Cool, down to ONLY 4000 Iraqi's losing there lives in Bagdad in the last 3 months.

Well I am glad you can now sleep easier in your bed tonight.

you'd prefer 5000?

1 Reply

@rugonnacry,

rugonnacry;44765 wrote:

you'd prefer 5000?

I'd prefer a big fat ZERO deaths. Implying that policy is working because 'ONLY' 900 Iraqi's died this month as oppossed to 1900 2 months ago hardly constitutes as progress

3 Replies

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;43880 wrote:

for all you conditional reality fans here, this was from the AP

Military, civilian deaths fall in Iraq

-Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch; 3rd Infantry Division

the surge continues to work, we cans still win and those on the ground know it.

It up the good fight, come home with victory

What's victory? Define it. Define it in terms of ATTAINABLE GOALS. "A stable Iraq" doesn't cut it.

What level of violence do we consider managable by Iraqi forces alone? Include numbers.

How many troops does Iraq need to raise for us to leave?

Will we accept ANY Iraqi government that is elected? Even a muslim extremist government?

"Victory" without details and timetables is a buzzword and little more.

0 Replies

@Numpty,

Numpty;44769 wrote:

I'd prefer a big fat ZERO deaths. Implying that policy is working because 'ONLY' 900 Iraqi's died this month as oppossed to 1900 2 months ago hardly constitutes as progress

actually, numerically you're wrong

1 Reply

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;44780 wrote:

actually, numerically you're wrong

Ethically I am right

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@Silverchild79,

and your ethical morality has no problem with us leaving tomorrow so that millions will be killed in genocide? that's a complex system you got their

sounds to me like you're more interested in what's convenient

2 Replies

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;44782 wrote:

and your ethical morality has no problem with us leaving tomorrow so that millions will be killed in genocide? that's a complex system you got their

sounds to me like you're more interested in what's convenient

Well now that's a whole other debate, would that have the potential to happen if your country and mine hadn't illegally entered Iraq?

2 Replies

@Numpty,

Numpty;44783 wrote:

Well now that's a whole other debate, would that have the potential to happen if your country and mine hadn't illegally entered Iraq?

umm yeah but we're a little past that point now, we're there and we need to get out of there in a way which won't lead to us having to come back in 5 years to a situation that's woorse then when we left it...

0 Replies

@Numpty,

Numpty;44769 wrote:

I'd prefer a big fat ZERO deaths. Implying that policy is working because 'ONLY' 900 Iraqi's died this month as oppossed to 1900 2 months ago hardly constitutes as progress

I sure wish we lived in a perfect world, too. But, I resigned myself to reality years ago. Aaaahhhhh.........visions of no war, poverty, disease, corruption, unhappiness, suffering, anxiety, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Aaaahhhhhh.

0 Replies

@Silverchild79,

are you meditating or farting...

0 Replies

@Silverchild79,

You decide. I don't want to limit your imagination. Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

0 Replies

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;44782 wrote:

and your ethical morality has no problem with us leaving tomorrow so that millions will be killed in genocide? that's a complex system you got their

sounds to me like you're more interested in what's convenient

So if we stay in Iraq for ten years, at the current rate of Iraqi deaths.... won't close to a million die anyway? Ultimately, once we leave, whether it be today or ten years from now, Iraq WILL have a civil war, and the Sunnis WILL be held accountable for the Saddam years. Over a million people die either way, the only difference is the number of Americans we're willing to sacrifice in the process.

1 Reply

@Freeman15,

Freeman15;44891 wrote:

Ultimately, once we leave, whether it be today or ten years from now, Iraq WILL have a civil war, and the Sunnis WILL be held accountable for the Saddam years. Over a million people die either way, the only difference is the number of Americans we're willing to sacrifice in the process.

not necessarily, if Christians can live in Rome then anything is possible. It takes time, and to claim that an Iraqi civil war is unavoidable is ridiculous. We fucked up their country, like it or not it happened. We owe it to them to fix it, regardless of how inconvenient it is. Things are better today that they were yesterday, and will continue to improve if with stick with this surge that continues to yield numerically verifiable results. Iraq existed before saddam, iraq can exist after saddam.

Retaliation is not a certainty, if it were then what ever happened to America's race war as payback for slavery?

2 Replies

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;44915 wrote:

not necessarily, if Christians can live in Rome then anything is possible. It takes time, and to claim that an Iraqi civil war is unavoidable is ridiculous. We ***ed up their country, like it or not it happened. We owe it to them to fix it, regardless of how inconvenient it is. Things are better today that they were yesterday, and will continue to improve if with stick with this surge that continues to yield numerically verifiable results. Iraq existed before saddam, iraq can exist after saddam.

Retaliation is not a certainty, if it were then what ever happened to America's race war as payback for slavery?

You make a very valid point. to a cerain point I have to agree with you, we fucked up we need to put it right. but what if putting it right is withdrawing and letting them sort it out themselves. Sure there maybe more deaths, there may not. But be rest assured any government put in place by the Americans won't last long once they leave.

Truely it is a paradox we must live with, the answers I don't know. But 1000-2000 peope dying in Iraq each month is not progress, far from it.

0 Replies

@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;44915 wrote:

not necessarily, if Christians can live in Rome then anything is possible. It takes time, and to claim that an Iraqi civil war is unavoidable is ridiculous. We ***ed up their country, like it or not it happened. We owe it to them to fix it, regardless of how inconvenient it is. Things are better today that they were yesterday, and will continue to improve if with stick with this surge that continues to yield numerically verifiable results. Iraq existed before saddam, iraq can exist after saddam.

Retaliation is not a certainty, if it were then what ever happened to America's race war as payback for slavery?

Ok, so this brings us back to my original question: WHEN?

Define victory empirically. None of this "when Iraq is stable" nonsense. What level of violence do we deem the Iraqi forces capable of handling? If you can't define victory in terms of numbers and dates, then we'll be there forever.

What's more, how do you plan to PAY for this war? Federal budgetary shortfall was $168billion in 2007, and our national debt is estimated at $9trillion+. Are you willing to sacrifice American prosperity for a temporarily free Iraq?

The difference between the freed slaves and the Shi'a in Iraq is that there weren't significant, often violent RELIGIOUS differences in addition to the social and economic troubles.

1 Reply

@Numpty,

Numpty;44769 wrote:

I'd prefer a big fat ZERO deaths. Implying that policy is working because 'ONLY' 900 Iraqi's died this month as oppossed to 1900 2 months ago hardly constitutes as progress

thats exactly what it constitutes

0 Replies

@Numpty,

Numpty;44783 wrote:

Well now that's a whole other debate, would that have the potential to happen if your country and mine hadn't illegally entered Iraq?

That needs to end... UN res 1440, 678, and 687 say it was legal on an INTERNATIONAL stanspoint...

And a Joint house agreement (US LAW) signed authorization to invade Iraq on Octber 16th 2002...

Just because we dont like what is happening does NOT make it illegal

1 Reply

AP: Troop and Civilain casualties contiue to fall!

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