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Libertarian Republican: Ron Paul is wrong on radical Islam

 
 
xj0hnx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 07:50 pm
@hatukazi,
hatukazi;44711 wrote:
Germany and Japan.


History tells us that Germany, and Japan got stomped back into their own lands when they tried expanding through counquering, hence they do not fall into the criteria we are discussing.

A refresher...

Quote:
Originally stated by Freeman15
In fact, I challenge you to demonstrate one instance in the 20th century where military expansionism benefitted a country. ANY country.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 08:01 pm
@Silverchild79,
Quote:
Even IF Tibet was a soveriegn nation, how did the PRC benefit from absorbing it?


That is a good question, it would seem that Tibet only adds costs and debate. My example does not fit the criteria, point made.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 12:15 am
@markx15,
markx15;44982 wrote:
That is a good question, it would seem that Tibet only adds costs and debate. My example does not fit the criteria, point made.


No worries man. You could argue that China benefitted simply by gaining the LAND (since classical realism does base a significant amount of power in the collection of land), but then you have to consider the concept of collective benefit. Meaning, China gained the land, and thus some power, but how much moral authority does it lose by holding it? I contend that they have a net loss of power by occupying Tibet, and thus are not better off than had they left Tibet alone.

The argument can be made for your case, I simply find the opposing argument much more academically convincing.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 08:02 am
@Silverchild79,
You made a good point, something which I agree with.

Quote:
Notice how America didn't start suffering from Islamic terrorism until we started meddling in their affairs? The people attacking us aren't princes getting greased by American investors, they're dirt-poor, usually young males who are frustrated with their governments and societies in general that THE UNITED STATES supports. They turn to their mosques, where they learn that infidels cannot occupy the holy land (Saudi is home to both Mecca AND Medina), and they are radicalized. Then, the government, supported by the US, kills or rapes one or two family members of these already unstable individuals, thus further radicalizing them.

Show me a single instance of Islamic terrorism against the United States prior to our involvement in the region. No, the Barbary Wars don't count, piracy is not terrorism, it is profitable enterprise.

Ron Paul has been an opponent of interventionist foreign policy since before 9/11, and has always advocated bringing ALL of our soldiers home. He is not a coward by any stretch, he stands on national television during each debate surrounded by candidates and moderators decidedly opposed to his ideas, and he speaks his mind, free of talking points or rhetoric. Ron Paul advocates sane foreign policy, and that is to stop telling other people how to live.
REDWHITEBLUE2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 01:49 pm
@markx15,
Ron Paul Is Not Only A KOOK He Is Also A Fraud
hatukazi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 03:17 pm
@REDWHITEBLUE2,
REDWHITEBLUE2;45144 wrote:
Ron Paul Is Not Only A KOOK He Is Also A Fraud


proof?
REDWHITEBLUE2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 05:54 pm
@hatukazi,
Ron Paul Is No Conservative A Real Conservative Believes In Smaller Government Not Getting Rid Of The FBI CIA And Leaving America Defenseless Just To Name A Few Things That Make Him A Fraud
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 09:47 pm
@REDWHITEBLUE2,
REDWHITEBLUE2;45168 wrote:
Ron Paul Is No Conservative A Real Conservative Believes In Smaller Government Not Getting Rid Of The FBI CIA And Leaving America Defenseless Just To Name A Few Things That Make Him A Fraud


Wouldn't the absence of the FBI and CIA effectively shrink the size of government? Hence, he is the ULTIMATE conservative.
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 12:36 am
@REDWHITEBLUE2,
REDWHITEBLUE2;45168 wrote:
Ron Paul Is No Conservative A Real Conservative Believes In Smaller Government Not Getting Rid Of The FBI CIA And Leaving America Defenseless Just To Name A Few Things That Make Him A Fraud



You must be having trouble operating your keyboard, I hear they have remedial courses at local colleges. Ron Paul is THE definition of a conservative. There is no conservative platform for the United States for maintaining large, ineffective buracratic machines. First off, you'd have to have a clue about his platform to make an accurate assesment, which...you do not. He doesn't want to "get rid of", he wants to make them run effectively with LESS buracracy. He most certainly doesn't want to leave America defenseless, as a matter of fact, besides McCain, I believe he is the only other candidate that actually has military service. He wants America to have a very strong military defending guess what? AMERICA!!!
hatukazi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 11:36 am
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;45180 wrote:
You must be having trouble operating your keyboard, I hear they have remedial courses at local colleges. Ron Paul is THE definition of a conservative. There is no conservative platform for the United States for maintaining large, ineffective buracratic machines. First off, you'd have to have a clue about his platform to make an accurate assesment, which...you do not. He doesn't want to "get rid of", he wants to make them run effectively with LESS buracracy. He most certainly doesn't want to leave America defenseless, as a matter of fact, besides McCain, I believe he is the only other candidate that actually has military service. He wants America to have a very strong military defending guess what? AMERICA!!!


right now the FBI, CIA, NSA, DOD and other acronymic offices are what you call "stovepipe organizations" each one reports to the higher-up in their own office and no sharing of information is encouraged, this leads to both competitive jealousy between organizations AND larger bureaucratic staff to keep secrets that would benefit the whole country.

re-shaping and downsizing these organizations can only be good for America.
0 Replies
 
klyph
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 06:08 pm
@Silverchild79,
This thread went a tad off track. It started out with Silver making a point that, even when radically Islamic nations aren't invaded, they still violently attack proponents of free speech.
My point is this, pre-emptive strikes are never justifiable and are immoral. If an Islamic group attacks us, wipe em out. But until they make a move against us, it is wrong to invade their country and establish our own brand of government over them.
0 Replies
 
DurtySanches
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 09:37 pm
@markx15,
markx15;44645 wrote:
Freeman how about China.


If China applys, you gotta include Russia. Does Vietnam qualify?
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 08:13 am
@Silverchild79,
China doesn't apply, Tibet is a weak example. Which territories did Vietnam conquer in the XX-XXI centuries?
0 Replies
 
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 12:55 pm
@DurtySanches,
DurtySanches;45949 wrote:
If China applys, you gotta include Russia. Does Vietnam qualify?


Afghanistan turned out really well for the Russians.....
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:31 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;45989 wrote:
Afghanistan turned out really well for the Russians.....


you should probably let them know you're being sarcastic...
DurtySanches
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:37 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;45989 wrote:
Afghanistan turned out really well for the Russians.....
There problem was they couldn't afford it, we can. And it did turn out well for us. How often you here Afgan in the news?
DurtySanches
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:38 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;46102 wrote:
you should probably let them know you're being sarcastic...
Trying to enlighten people again?
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:58 pm
@DurtySanches,
DurtySanches;46104 wrote:
There problem was they couldn't afford it, we can. And it did turn out well for us. How often you here Afgan in the news?


we can afford it!? thats news to me, i was certain that we were in a globally and historicly unpreceded level of debt! but if you say we can afford it, then that makes it okay :thumbup:
DurtySanches
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 08:03 pm
@Silverchild79,
I can agree on that.
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 08:13 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;46115 wrote:
we can afford it!? thats news to me, i was certain that we were in a globally and historicly unpreceded level of debt! but if you say we can afford it, then that makes it okay :thumbup:


Poeple don't understand that just because the fed is pumping imaginary money into the system to save the banks, and because you can hand someone a piece of plastic that doesn't mean you can afford it, or have money.
 

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