Prophet "Muhammad" (PBUH) in the Bible

@z0z0,

z0z0;13276 wrote:

Silverchild79 - your body has many parts does it not? You have a nose and an two eyes, you have two legs and maybe even two testicles. Are each of those parts separate entities or are they YOU? God is obviously a multidimensional being. A person can't comprehend God so God had to send his "son" to us in a form that we can understand. The Son (aspect of God) - Jesus - came to earth in human form. Does this mean that he is "different" or a separate entity? No. Therefore Christianity is not a polytheistic religion.

In the days that the Bible was written - who would have understood multidimensionality? People wrote what they could understand. If we had to define the relationship of God + Son + Holy Spirit we would probably define te multiple aspects of God in a more sophisticated way.

Is there confusion - yes. We are mere mortals and therefore can't comprehend the fullness of God and we make errors. Is it time for a spiritual renovation? Maybe.

As for the Muslims - they worship the same God that the Jews and the Christians worship. The stories of the Old Testament are also the foundation for Islam - are they not the stories of Abraham and the rest not a part of the Koran? My problem with Islam is the concept of Muhammad - claiming to be a prophet writing "the words that he heard from God". How do we know that he really heard the words of God? Could he have had an agenda? For a "Holy Man" - he sure did cause a lot of personal bloodshed. In 700 AD - Rome and Constantinople were power-houses built on religion. Could Muhammad wanted to discredit those two power-houses for his own political agenda?

As for the Old Testament. I never did understand nor like the "Old God" of vengeance and genocide. I do not like the concept of a God that ONLY liked the Jews. If it was up to me, the Old Testament would be excised like an inflamed appendix.

1. The polytheistic Christianity remark actually came from The Franks concepts and beliefs about Christianity, read a history book. They sacked the whole of North African Rome because of this (and other reasons). I would also submit that a 1st century world, the majority of which was still polytheistic, would understand the multidimensionalism of Yahweh far better then your average American Christian today.

2. The number of my Testicles is none of your business :p

3. Unfortunately the God of the old Testament is the "Father" of the new testament. This is what I mean when I talk about the difference between Church Christianity and Bible Christianity. To accept Christianity in it's entirety you have to accept, and agree, that a perfect being (the father) endorsed rape, genocide, racism etc. And that Hindu's, and Buddhist's who live pious lives and would never think to commit such acts will burn in unspeakable torment forever.

sorry, I ended up on my soapbox again. Perhaps if you better understood history we wouldn't have these "misunderstandings"

and it's two.... if you must know

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@SWORD of GOD,

Most of those are circumstantial anyway.

Jesus is not God, God id God and He, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity.

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@SWORD of GOD,

hmm? What's circumstantial?

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@SWORD of GOD,

His list of Bible quotes. It depends on what context it's use in, and if you read what's around it and between the lines.

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@SWORD of GOD,

OIC

I thought you meant my reference to God in the OT advocating murder/ stoning children/ rape etc

I was trying to think what circumstances would warrant that

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;13277 wrote:

3. Unfortunately the God of the old Testament is the "Father" of the new testament. This is what I mean when I talk about the difference between Church Christianity and Bible Christianity. To accept Christianity in it's entirety you have to accept, and agree, that a perfect being (the father) endorsed rape, genocide, racism etc. And that Hindu's, and Buddhist's who live pious lives and would never think to commit such acts will burn in unspeakable torment forever.

sorry, I ended up on my soapbox again. Perhaps if you better understood history we wouldn't have these "misunderstandings"

The OT is technically the monotheistic foundation for Judaism + Christianity + Islam. So all three religions have a screwed up "God". For this reason I prefer to drop the OT and concentrate on the teachings of Jesus.

The OT was the oral tradition of the Rabbis. The Jews may like to have a vengeful and vindictive God which they could be afraid of. They obviously had agendas. The only thing of value out of the OT is the Ten Commandments as given by God to Moses (supposedly). The OT is the work of MAN and not of God.

1 Reply

@z0z0,

z0z0;13287 wrote:

The OT is the work of MAN and not of God.

I think that's the first time I heard a Christian say that. Also, if you look at the actions of Jesus concerning the OT I would think that he might disagree with you

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@Silverchild79,

Silverchild79;13277 wrote:

2. The number of my Testicles is none of your business :p

Please don't take as any sort of attack - it was just a gender comment - two testicles = male.

Silverchild79;13289 wrote:

I think that's the first time I heard a Christian say that. Also, if you look at the actions of Jesus concerning the OT I would think that he might disagree with you

We all have different opinions and fortunately we Christians have evolved to the point were we no longer want to kill one another over this. We try to respect one another's view.

How did Jesus support the OT?

Silverchild79;13289 wrote:

I think that's the first time I heard a Christian say that. Also, if you look at the actions of Jesus concerning the OT I would think that he might disagree with you

The OT was written by Rabbis. It is more "History of the Jews" + "Jewish Superiority 101" than anything else. Also their interpretation of their relationship with God.

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@SWORD of GOD,

and 9=Chuck Norris

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@SWORD of GOD,

Quote:

3. Unfortunately the God of the old Testament is the "Father" of the new testament. This is what I mean when I talk about the difference between Church Christianity and Bible Christianity. To accept Christianity in it's entirety you have to accept, and agree, that a perfect being (the father) endorsed rape, genocide, racism etc. And that Hindu's, and Buddhist's who live pious lives and would never think to commit such acts will burn in unspeakable torment forever.

Doesn't Christ now prevent God from being so harsh in punishment for sinners or am I mistaken? Anyway, anything in the Old Testament about Israel's taking over the Promised Land or other injustices can be explained. It was a different time then and threats to society had to be taken seriously. If sinning became lightly punished, it would abound and become uncontrolled. Sinful decadence is historically the downfall of society. So it had to be weeded out for society's sake. This is the same with the killings of Canaanites. Any survivors would undoubtedly try to retake the land. It is a horrible necessity to have tried to wipe out the native populace top garuntee a stable future, more for Israel's sake than out of God's cruelty. Anyway, these races are extinct, so, unlike with Islam's violent tendencies, nothing could be drawn from these stories after the native civilizations were destroyed.

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@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;13293 wrote:

Doesn't Christ now prevent God from being so harsh in punishment for sinners or am I mistaken?

Sorta, there's allot of debate on what the full implications of Christ are for the world. It's impossible to find two Christians, let alone Churches, that agree.

My main beef with the OT is this, look at Exodus, god forsakes the Egyptians in favor of the people of Israel. I just don't see god playing favorites with his own children. And while the world has changed allot I can never see a period in time where it would be godly to commit genocide and rape. That's a big hurdle for "God's timelessness and perfection" to overcome, and that's why it's generally not spoken about in Christian circles.

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@Silverchild79,

Do you REALLY think that "God" intervened killing the Egyptians to free the Jews? I think this is mythology created to proclaim Jewish history and self-congratulatory superiority.

Do you think that God would really create 0.05% of the global population as a "Chosen People" and everyone else is second class riff-raff? I highly doubt it.

Silverchild79;13300 wrote:

Sorta, there's allot of debate on what the full implications of Christ are for the world. It's impossible to find two Christians, let alone Churches, that agree..

This is a sign of Christian enlightenment. We all follow the "Spirit of the Law". We understand what is meant by the New Testament and even the stuff in the OT. We have evolved to the point where we do not have to live in a black and white world. We are also enlightened enough to respect the beliefs of other.

Some key points which we all agree on

1. Don't kill
2. Don't steal
3. Respect your mother and father
4. Love they neighbor
5. Turn the other cheek

Those are some of the keys to Christianity.

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@SWORD of GOD,

you mean these?

'Not have I despised god...Not have I killed...Not have I fornicated...Not have I despoiled the thing of the god...not have I defiled the wife of a man...Not have I cursed god...Not have I borne false witness'.
- Egyptian Book of the Dead

that's the bible of Egypt, which predates the Torah by thosands of years. Where moses lived for years before starting the Jewish faith. Kind of interesting

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@Silverchild79,

Abraham is classified as the man that created monotheistic religion - the first on being Judaism.

Monotheism did not spring into existence over night. Yes I have read that there were some other faiths that may have been monotheistic in nature before Judaism was created.

Initially the God of the Jews was more powerful than the Gods of the other peoples (my God is more powerful than your God) and then it evolved into Only One God.

The Old Testament is basically the mythology of the Jewish people.

As for the Egyptian Book of the Dead - was it a monotheistic belief system?

1 Reply

@z0z0,

z0z0;13309 wrote:

Abraham is classified as the man that created monotheistic religion - the first on being Judaism.

Monotheism did not spring into existence over night. Yes I have read that there were some other faiths that may have been monotheistic in nature before Judaism was created.

Initially the God of the Jews was more powerful than the Gods of the other peoples (my God is more powerful than your God) and then it evolved into Only One God.

The Old Testament is basically the mythology of the Jewish people.

As for the Egyptian Book of the Dead - was it a monotheistic belief system?

No Egyptians weren't (usually) monotheistic, although the book of the dead contains the first "10 commandments" as I posted before, there is also a "Christ" figure in book four.

So if Jesus was a Jew, and Judaism is just a collection of man made mythology, the whole concept of the Christ messiah was based on OT prophecy, and there are documents which predate Judea Christian beliefs that are so similar they look like they could have inspired the bible itself, where then does that put Christianity?

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@Silverchild79,

So where does it put Christianity? Where it belongs.

Christianity is like M$ Windows (IMHO) it is a bit buggy but it was the first Religious Operating System to gain popular fast-growing adoption. Was the spirituality of the religion misused? Yes. Is the dogma of the institution used for social and political control? Yes. Does the religion need an update? Probably. Do we need to get rid of DOS? Maybe.

Christianity is not perfect so do not try to attack it in a black or white manner.

Christianity helped create the free society in which atheists and critics of all sorts can live any sort of lifestyle that they want. Next time you whine and complain think about that!

As for Muhammad - was he any different than Joseph Smith of the Mormon Church? Why would the Koran be a better "Book" than the Bible

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@SWORD of GOD,

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me but I have no problem with Christianity as it is executed in modern culture.

I, as you, would say however that it is imperfect, there are many who would disagree with me, and that's where the debate starts.

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@markx15,

markx15;13270 wrote:

On another note Sword of God please I might have a diferent Bible, and I didn't check every quote, but this one I did: Luke 19:27 - "And he said, the things which are impossible with men are possible with God." where did you get this from :

Check it here if you like:

the Online Parallel Bible Online Parallel Bible: Weaving God's Word into the Web

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@z0z0,

z0z0;13314 wrote:

As for Muhammad - was he any different than Joseph Smith of the Mormon Church? Why would the Koran be a better "Book" than the Bible

I expect that you have read the Quran! If so, can you please support your claim by comparing between the Quran and the Bible by quoting from them in any subject?

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@Silverchild79,

No - I have not read the Koran. All I know is that Muhammad was a man of the sword and spread the religion by the sword. The only things I know of the Koran is the trash talk about how much Muslims should go out and kill non Muslims.

You are the "missionary here" so it is up to you to show similarities or differences. Show us the superiority of your religion or God.

The nice thing about my Bible is that it is translated into all the languages of the world while the Koran is supposed to be written and read only in the language of Muhammad. How is someone supposed to be a good Muslim if they can't read the Koran?

As for Muhammad - how is he any different than Joseph Smith. If we follow your line of logic stating that Muhammad said that earlier religions were corrupt then Joseph Smith has the same legitimate cause to discredit Islam as a corrupt religion.

As for who is converting to Islam in America today - my impression is that it is the underclass and misfits who do not fit into society. It is not that they are running towards Islam but that they are running away from the society they do not fit into. That is why new Muslims / radical Muslims are prone to violence against the state.

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Prophet "Muhammad" (PBUH) in the Bible

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