The problem with public schools in America.

Hi, Centroles. Welcome to A2K.

Having been a teacher, I have quite a bit to contribute to your proposal. For the present, I am marking this thread.

Re: The problem with public schools in America.


Your opening statement here is false which makes much of the rest of your post meaningless (not that it isn't a good topic discussion but because it's argued based on false data..).

7.1% of Public education is funded at the National level and 49.9% at the state level with the remaining 43% coming from local (city/town/county) sources. ( http://www.census.gov/govs/school/01fullreport.pdf )

I'm sorry for the inaccuracy. That was simply what I've been told and believed. I wasn't even aware that the federal government is allowed to contribute. If that were the case, I would advocate that most of it be federally funded instead as many states are experiencing economic crisis themselves.

And 43% is a great deal of money. Poorer communities often have fewer schools. And if half the money they get is supposed to come from the local level, surely they'll be at a significant disadvantage if they locally just can't generate much money at all.

The gist of the debate is whether or not you would support school funding reform where most the money comes from the federal government. Where people will be impersonalized from paying for the schools more and thus demand that schools get as much funding as they need.

Do you think it's fair to have to pay for schools and kids that don't live in your community, to pay for schools that your kids don't go to. Would you support it if you were a parent whose child goes to a school in a rich community and gets more than what it would get were the funding federally mandated? Would it be better if on top of the federal funding, local communities were free to pass levys to give their own schools even more money? Personally, I don't think it's really that different having your taxes go to schools your kids don't go to than it is to pay federal taxes to build roads that you don't use, hospitals that you don't live near etc. I mean if someone who lives in a community doesn't have any children, should he/she not have to pay for the school levys?

bookmark

Centroles, fishin' always be on target with the statistics.

Quite frankly, I think the Federal Government ought to stay the hell out of public schools. My suggestion would be to have a per capita tax because every single person in this country benefits from well educated children.

I don't think the real problem is money; it's lack of motivation and stifling of natural curiosity Standardized tests have taken all true eagerness out of our young people. They only strive for passing those tests, be they county, state, or National.

Do some studying of the education funding mechanisms in place already. The "'disadvantge" comes from a lot of places but money isn't the problem in most cases. If you read the funding reports on the Mass. Dept. of Ed. WWW site for example you'd see that the state portion of the total isn't paid out on a simple per pupil basis. The most affluent communities get NO state funds and the poorest get the higest per student amount. The entire system is built on a sliding scale so the more affluent the community is the less outside assistance they get.

But you'd also find that for some reason the most affluent communites have the highest rates for graduation and the highest scores on standardized tests yet they spend less per pupil than the poorer communities. That tells me that $$ aren't the problem - it's how the $$ are being spent by the local school districts.

Here in MA many of the most affluent suburbs around Boston actually take students from Boston and have them attend the suburban schools. Not only are those residents paying taxes that they never see anything back from they pay local taxes that directly educate students from another city. That increase their costs while reducing overall costs for the poorest school districts in the City of Boston.



This is a two way sword. You are assuming that because it's impersonal that people would support increased funding. My own guess is that they'd be just as likely to feel litttle, if any, remorse about CUTTING funding if it were all doled out at the national level. Review the studies - very few people argue over increased property taxes if they know the increases are going to local schools. I doubt they'd be so inclined to do that if they knew the $$ were going into a national pool.

imo the problem is accountability. there is none. everyone is just passed right along.

i went to a very good public high school with more than enough funding but it still didn't matter. unlike other nations that actually have education standards, there is no sense of urgency among the students in the US. just show up for homeroom a few times a week and you're handed a diploma. you can't do that either? there's always the GED. then you're off to community college where you learn everything you were supposed to learn in junior high school. you're then handed a diploma certifying that you are now qualified to be a secretary.

throwing money at that problem isn't going to solve it.

IMO the major problem with public schools in America is our permissive society and allegedly protecting the rights of the few at the expense of the many. Additionally schools in addition to being places of learning are expected to be day care centers and restaurants. I would also add that the destruction of the neighborhood schools through busing distanced parents from the problems and policies of the schools their children attended. And last but not least parental apathy. Throwing money at a public school system will not correct the problems of our public schools. Parochial schools put out a far better product for far less money. Why?

throwing money at the public education system is the politically popular thing to do because trying to solve the real problems would step on too many toes.
it's like a bunch of people arguing over the best way to dispose of crap. while they're arguing they spend money on covering it up, masking the smell... and the people actually applaud this effort to hide the crap.

Parental apathy??? You have got to be kidding me!!! I have a lot to say about your absurd post and I will be back to throw in my 2 cents!

Montana
Canadian or US. Please spare us a repeat of your fight with the Commonwealth of Mass. Yes, apathy. Too many parents send their children off to school and take no interest in their education. Education begins at home. If the parent had any interest at all they would be aware of the fact that their child was failing and do something about it. My wife and I made sure that our sons who are products of the public school system were learning. We checked their homework and went up to school to speak with the teachers on every open school night. MY son and his wife do the same for their three boys. Unfortunately too many parents do not as evidenced by children who graduate from school virtual illiterates.
Both my sons managed to graduate from college with one holding a masters degree and it was all achieved in the public education system,with the exception of post grad work.
Why do you suppose that happened thru parental apathy or the instilling the value of education in them?

au
You want me to spare you with what I know the problems are, yet you repeat the same thing I've seen you say a million times. Your kids have been out of the school system for a very long time, so excuse me for saying that you don't have a clue as to what's going on in the schools today.
With much thought, I have decided not to waste my breath again, just to have some arrogant know it all pick apart my every response.

Keep patting yourself on the back au and think that you have all the answers, but don't tell me to spare you or anyone else with what I have to say just because you don't want to hear it. I have just as much right to express my opinions here as anyone else!!!!!

Montana


Those are your words are they not. Yes, you can post whatever you want to. However, when you posted the response that you did you should expect the response that you received in return. As far as being out of touch with the school system one would have to be blind to not see what is going on in our schools particularly in inner city ones. In addition I have 3 grandsons in the public school system two in high school and one in middle school. Thankfully they live in a state far from NY. I should note when their parents looked to buy a house the first and most important thing was the school system.

I should add a school system is only as good as the people who populate it.

My first response to you was based on the fact that you have insulted countless of parents who are not fortunate enough to buy a home in areas with such high standards, so pardon me your highness!

Montana
If you take another look you will find my initial response did not mention buying a house. Therefore it would have been impossible for your response to be based upon that. I will say again the will to learn is the responsibility of the parent. And all too many parents are apathetic. It is not and should not be the responsibility of the school system to feed the students and assume parental duties

the parents clearly play a huge factor. why do asian students excel at those same public schools?

my old NYC junior high school stats...

those who meet english standards:
black: 20.8%
hispanic: 30.6%
asian: 56.3%
white: 44.4%

those who meet math standards:
black: 9%
hispanic: 24.4%
asian: 59%
white: 38.4%

this despite the fact that about 10% of the asian students are recent immigrants.

btw, new york spends the most per student on education in the nation ($11,871 per year). yet it's notoriously poor. or rather, because it's notoriously poor. proof positive that throwing money at it doesn't work.

au
If my child is to spend 6 hours a day for 13 years in a place they call school that my tax dollars are paying for, then you better believe they have a responsability to educate my child. My son needed a special program that the schools refused to provide him and they made my life a living hell for pressing the issue. My son would come home from school so very frustrated from not being able to keep up and when it came time to do his homework he couldn't do it because he was so burnt out from struggling all day long. Then when his homework wasn't getting done, I was blamed for not making sure he did it. I tried everything to get him motivated, but nothing worked. I tried making it fun, giving him rewards as the school suggested with no luck at all. I pressed and pressed the schools to put him in a special program and they refused, so they robbed him of the education that he deserved and they have the nerve to tell me it was my fault that my son was failing. They wanted my son on Ritalin which I actually tried for a short time, but the side effects were so severe that I stopped with that so called treatment. My son did no better in school on the Ritalin than before he was on it, but they didn't give a damn about that, nor did they care about the terrible side effects. They wanted him on that Ritalin no ifs, ands, or buts and when I refused they sicked Social Services on me who came to my door with a piece of paper accusing me of medical neglect and refering to me as a perpetrator. My response to you was from having read your story several times before and knowing where you stand on this issue. I was going to walk away from this question, but as much as it makes my blood boil, I think what I have to say needs to be said as much as possible.

#1. Huge problem in the schools is bullies being allowed to threaten and abuse other students who's grades will seriously be affected by mere fear.

Example: I was a victim of bullies all through my school career and because of it I went from an A student to a failing student. I was being threatened and attacked in the halls between classes, in the girls room, during recess, at lunch, on my way to school and on my way home from school. Why? Because I was overweight! Simple as that. Kids these days have learned to use the system to abuse other kids, such as making up stories to the teachers about kids that are not true. These kids will tell a teacher that they heard some kid say that he/she was talking about brinking a gun to school and is planning on killing the teacher and they laugh their asses off when the police come in to arrest this innocent kid that has no clue what's going on.

Solution: Throw the bullies out of the public schools. Open special schools for abusive kids if need be, but no child should have to live in fear. Adults are arrested for abusing other people and kids should be no exception to the rule.


#2. The schools are getting way too involved in the personal lives of their students.

Example: I've had a school cousellor tell my son that I had given up on him because I refused to put him on Ritalin and when I confronted this counsellor and cut off all ties with him being able to see my son, again their personal army was called in (Social Services) to threaten me back in my place. I could go on and on.

Solution: Get back to the what the schools were meant for. No one has the right to pick our childrens brain when it comes to personal issues. Home is home and schools have no place in our home!

#3. Sex education. The schools have no business teaching our children sex issues that reach in a personal level. That's a family issue that needs to be addressed at home. I know many of you will argue that many parents won't teach their kids anything about sex and I say, it's not for the school to decide wheather it's right or wrong. I thing classes should be available for kids to take with the consent of parents who are to uncomfortable to talk to their kids, but consent should be required.


Sorry I couldn't spare you from my thoughts and experiences again au, but not everyone is blessed with such smooth trails in life.

one thing about new york. have you ever been there. EVERY THING costs a ton more in new york. movie tickets cost over $20. apartments cost thousands upon thousands per month. everything costs more. and everyone gets paid a lot more as well since they have a higher cost of living. as a result, i am sure the average teacher at ny gets paid more, the average book costs more etc. of course they're going to spend more money per child. they spend more money on everything. an dthey collect a ton of tax revenue too.