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@markx15,

markx15;11059 wrote:

They should stop their extreme actions, because they have a consience which oposes that idea, if not then they will eventually commit a terrorist act. I wouldn't defy him, I would gently ask him to explain himself, you see first he tells us not to kill, then he tell us the oposite? I doubt God would ask any of us to do that anyways, if he wants someone dead what's stoping him? Unless it is not God asking...

That is a completely subjective view of God, when faith is supposed to be objective. You are assuming your opinion is greater than God's will. You have the arrogance to question God's bidding? I should imagine God would ask you to do things to test your faith. Why did he ask Noah to build an Ark, why not just prevent the flood? If you believe in an omnipresent superbeing, perfect in every way, how can you question his motives?

markx15 wrote:

Personally I stick to the New Testament, one reason is that many times during his teaching Jesus said : Hear those who have ears to listen. That identifies an implied meaning to what he had previously said, that requires interpretation to find, IMO you should do that yourself, not rely on anyone else to interprate for you.

So you need the original copy of the Bible then? Everything you've read from the Bible has been re-interpreted for you!

markx15 wrote:

Also these rules that were set up, be them in any secular religion, are directly related to the needs of the people at the time, being so we also must relate them to our needs in our time.

As an atheist I understand this, I only believe that the Bible, or the Koran etc are handbooks for running a successful society. It makes perfect sense that they should change with the times. But to a believer it shows great arrogance to re-write the teachings of God. I would imagine God would be most displeased.

markx15 wrote:

To me eternal damnation is a mechanizim to control the actions of people, it is one aspect of the bible that was never interpreted in a diferent context by the Christian Church, at least not to my knowledge. What you "suffer" for your sins is the eternal guilt of having made them, but by repenting and learning from your mistakes you can be sure not to make them again.

So, providing you have no conscience you can do whatever you like and God will not punish you? That's not the Catholic view is it?

markx15 wrote:

I choose to believe, do they?

How can you force belief? Either you believe or you don't, based on subjective opinion. If God does exist his precence would be objective and their would be no choice regarding belief, that is what faith is.

markx15 wrote:

He gave us free-will, I am sure he forsaw the consequences, but no doubt the benefits outweight it considerably.

So how are you supposed to get into Heaven? Trail and error? Surely the Bible is meant to show you the way, and free will is whether or not you follow this path?

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@markx15,

markx15;11060 wrote:

Are we perfect? To be treated as such? We make more mistakes then solutions, but we try, hopefully that is enough or we are all are doomed together.

So the word of the Bible is really quite meaningless, all one has to do to get into heaven is make a genuine effort to please God? Even if you genuinely believe that torturing and murdering women is God's will? How bad can these mistakes be?

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@markx15,

markx15;11062 wrote:

The idea contained in the Bible is of course Gods, his "mind", but the way it is said, and the customs are of the age, these have to be adapted and rewriten, or else they won't apply to todays common man.

Isn't it copyright violation to re-write someone elses material? Very Happy

If God is the all powerfull all seeing super being he's cracked up to be, why does he allow mere mortals to speak on his behalf?

1 Reply

@markx15,

markx15;11064 wrote:

Christians on the most part have guidelines, not set down rules. Faith in God is just that, the want for a moral life comes from that faith, not the other way around.

I thought the ten commandments were more than just guidelines???!!!

I have morals without faith, how does that work then?

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@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11058 wrote:

What makes some rules more relevant than others? How are you supposed to know if you're doing Gods bidding or not? Why do some Christians have conflicting beliefs on homosexuality, for example? Will one group be refused entrance to heaven?

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What makes some rules more relevant than others?

Freewill.

Quote:

How are you supposed to know if you're doing Gods bidding or not?

Your knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. It was taught to you, you were not born with it. I assume you know the difference? In civilian terms?

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Why do some Christians have conflicting beliefs on homosexuality, for example?

Again freewill, the same thing you use to criticise someone else's beliefs. It's fine, but you seem not so forth comming when the same is asked of you?

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Will one group be refused entrance to heaven

That is all dependant on there Judges mercy.
Why do you feel the need to degrade anothers faith in order to vindicate your lack there of?

1 Reply

@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11067 wrote:

Isn't it copyright violation to re-write someone elses material?

If God is the all powerfull all seeing super being he's cracked up to be, why does he allow mere mortals to speak on his behalf?

I dont think anyone got the copywrite on the bible.

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@Drnaline,

Drnaline;11071 wrote:

Freewill.

That doesn't make any sense. You are saying that rules don't mean anything, everyone has freewill to decide how to live their life and what they choose doesn't matter. My question was 'who gets to choose what rules are worth following and what rules need changing, and on what authority do they make these decisions'? If pleasing God doesn't take any rule following what is the point of your morality?

Drnaline wrote:

Your knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. It was taught to you, you were not born with it. I assume you know the difference? In civilian terms?

I have a taught sense of morality, it also changes as I gain more experience. But you just said that morality is man made, not God given. So how do you know it's what God wants? You seem to be stummbling in the dark. You haven't the faintest idea what God wants, Islam may well be right for all that you know. Rather than saying your God is all knowing you have practically said that you are the all knowing one. That closely resembles Atheistic Satanism, you are God. I was under the impression that by definition Christians put their faith in the word of Christ. You defy his teaching then?

Drnaline wrote:

Again freewill, the same thing you use to criticise someone else's beliefs. It's fine, but you seem not so forth comming when the same is asked of you?

When what is asked of me? I understand it is freewill, but one of the groups has used freewill to make the wrong decision. This God makes it a bit tricky to get right doesn't he? You may all be wasting your time and effort, you can't even decide on what's right and wrong.

Drnailine wrote:

That is all dependant on there Judges mercy.

So pretty much a game of chance? I'm just as likely to be saved as anyone really, and don't have to have my lifestyle dictated to me by centuries old superstition.

Drnaline wrote:

Why do you feel the need to degrade anothers faith in order to vindicate your lack there of?

Respect is earnt. Why should I respect a faith? I have no need to vindicate my lack of faith, it's my freewill which allows me to debate religion and faith for entertainment on the internet.

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;11072 wrote:

I dont think anyone got the copywrite on the bible.

I'd appreciate it if you could answer the question, rather than just pick up on my obviously flippant remark.

Why would God allow mere mortals to speak on his behalf?

1 Reply

@Morningstarr,

This is just a general response to what's been going on here:

Firts of all, as I said, Leviticus is the rules of the Jewish priests, not modern Christians. Homosexuality is an exception because it is also discouraged (though less straightforwardly) in other parts of the Bible, like in the story of Sodom and Gommorah. However, there is nothing to suggest that anyone but the Levites refrain from eating pork and shellfish nowadays.

The Koran is controlled by the imams and ayatollahs, so you are right, Morningstarr, many Muslims do not know it has changed. This contrast is because of the modern setups of the two religions. Many Muslims do not even know what the Arabic verses they recite from rote memory even mean (that's what bleeding heart liberals call 'moderates').

However, Christianity has been different since the Reformation and the translation of the Bible. After the Bible was translated, the first time it was knid of changed due to mistranslation, some decided that they did not agree with the Vatican's interpretation (the majority of Protestants, however, just came about because of their German prince's political moves to become independant or the fact that Henry VIII just couldn't find his soulmate). That's when the idea that you could interpret the Bible to say whatever you want it to came about. Protestant interpretations took out passages that incriminated the whole basis of their faith, interpreted passages that were obviously literal as symbolic, and sometimes vice-versa, and disregareded the phrase "You are Peter, and on this rock I build my church."

So, being a Catholic, I do not have to answer for those who deviate from my faith, my church's interpretation of the Bible has remained pretty much unchanged through the centuries. Where it was changed, it was after careful consideration, and was made by the Pope, God's agent on Earth, who can do such things.

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@Professor Chaos,

Good post Reagaknight.

I admit I was referring to protestants over catholics. For the sake of discussion, do you think protestants will be damned to hell?

1 Reply

@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11086 wrote:

Good post Reagaknight.

I admit I was referring to protestants over catholics. For the sake of discussion, do you think protestants will be damned to hell?

Thanks. Your question is a bit tough for me to answer, considering the wide variety of protestant denominations. Also, to protestant people on here, please do not be offended by any of the following. I assure you that I do not judge a person based on their faith, but their character and values: I don't believe that every protestant will go to hell, but the majority simply must, unfortunately, according to basic theology. Here's what I think about major non-Catholic denominations-

Coptic Church and similar eastern non- Orthodox churches- they are basically Catholic in essence, having chosen it over the Orthodox during the great schism. However, they were estranged, so even if they are basically in full communion with us, practices differ slightly. That's mostly inconsequential, IMO, and I think they may even be able to skip Purgatory if they are meticulous about sinning.

Eastern Orthodox- This is the only church I am okay with rejoining with at this time. We split up for rather silly reasons, which I think we can overcome now that there is no emperor; the patriarch is like a pope to them. I feel that they can still go to heaven, but will probably have a long stay in purgatory.

Anglican, Lutheran, other Reformation era protestants- These are the only modern protestants that have a hope of entering heaven. This is because they do believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the host, not just as a symbol.
------------ Going to Hell, in my opinion.

Calvinist- not major, I just really don't like them. They are one of the holier-than-thou protestant faiths, believing that God has already chosen people for heaven, and that we have no say in it; of course, assuming that they themselves are chosen. How very ironic, as I believe they will find out. Very Happy

Mainline protestants today- The problem I have with them is that they believe that the host is only a symbol. Our entire second part of mass is devoted to communion, which is Jesus's body and blood, just like he said.

Evangelicals, 'Bible Christians', these guys are the same thing as above, they just really annoy me with their attempts at conversion. They have many misconceptions about Catholics. They come from many faiths.

Fundamentalists- these are the worst, their large population of fallen Catholics causes them to be vociferous against the original Church, and to spread lies among the other protestant faiths. I will clarify about those lies if anyone wishes.

And, I feel the need to include Jews, who aren't protestant- Althought they reject Christ, it would have been a huge waste of paper in the old testament if God just gave up on the chosen people.

However, I don't think that by definition, those who are of non-Catholic faith are ultimately doomed to hell. That's what conversion is for. Also, I think that all Jews and Christians need to join together to stand up to worse forces today, after which we can solve our disputes. If you wish me to clarify anything for you, I would be glad.

P.S. You seem like the sort of atheist who's a veteran of many arguments with Christians. Thank you for not trying to disparage theology as a whole here, but just calling out those who should be.

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@Professor Chaos,

I actually have little experience in debating religion, I understand the notion of faith and feel people are entitled to it.

On one hand I disagree with organised religion, but at the same time accept the past necessity.

I think that this thread has shown just how complex and contradictory religion is. I would guess that most people have no real understanding of their religion, they make themselves look rather foolish to be honest.

If I believed in God I think I would have to study all religions very thouroughly before I made a decision. This notion of blind faith is quite scary when you stop to think about it.

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@Professor Chaos,

Quote:

I actually have little experience in debating religion, I understand the notion of faith and feel people are entitled to it.

If only more of your fellow athiests took that stance on religion.

Quote:

If I believed in God I think I would have to study all religions very thouroughly before I made a decision. This notion of blind faith is quite scary when you stop to think about it.

I was raised Catholic, but have done this, though admittedly with an apologetic viewpoint in favor of Catholocism. I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is the most legitimate among them, and Catholocism by far the most legitamite in Christianity.

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@Professor Chaos,

Yes, I can see you have done your homework and commend you for it.

Ultimately modern Christianity has very little adverse effect on me so I don't tend to be too critical.

1 Reply

@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11093 wrote:

Yes, I can see you have done your homework and commend you for it.

Ultimately modern Christianity has very little adverse effect on me so I don't tend to be too critical.

It was the farthest thing from hard for me, such theological matters interest me. I say live and let live on most matters concerning atheism. Most athiests have made up their minds concerning religion due to past experiences and will not be convinced to follow religion easily. However, if my religion is attacked, I feel the need to defend it, so I don't like it that so many atheists are hostile towards religion.

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@Professor Chaos,

I just enjoy the cut and thrust of debate. Very Happy

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@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11073 wrote:

That doesn't make any sense. You are saying that rules don't mean anything, everyone has freewill to decide how to live their life and what they choose doesn't matter. My question was 'who gets to choose what rules are worth following and what rules need changing, and on what authority do they make these decisions'? If pleasing God doesn't take any rule following what is the point of your morality?
I have a taught sense of morality, it also changes as I gain more experience. But you just said that morality is man made, not God given. So how do you know it's what God wants? You seem to be stummbling in the dark. You haven't the faintest idea what God wants, Islam may well be right for all that you know. Rather than saying your God is all knowing you have practically said that you are the all knowing one. That closely resembles Atheistic Satanism, you are God. I was under the impression that by definition Christians put their faith in the word of Christ. You defy his teaching then?
When what is asked of me? I understand it is freewill, but one of the groups has used freewill to make the wrong decision. This God makes it a bit tricky to get right doesn't he? You may all be wasting your time and effort, you can't even decide on what's right and wrong.
So pretty much a game of chance? I'm just as likely to be saved as anyone really, and don't have to have my lifestyle dictated to me by centuries old superstition.
Respect is earnt. Why should I respect a faith? I have no need to vindicate my lack of faith, it's my freewill which allows me to debate religion and faith for entertainment on the internet.

Quote:

That doesn't make any sense. You are saying that rules don't mean anything, everyone has freewill to decide how to live their life and what they choose doesn't matter. My question was 'who gets to choose what rules are worth following and what rules need changing, and on what authority do they make these decisions'? If pleasing God doesn't take any rule following what is the point of your morality?

Of course it don't make sense to you, your an atheist.

Quote:

I have a taught sense of morality, it also changes as I gain more experience. But you just said that morality is man made, not God given. So how do you know it's what God wants?

I don't. How do you?

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You seem to be stummbling in the dark.

No more then you.

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You haven't the faintest idea what God wants,

And you do, right? That's a good one.

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Islam may well be right for all that you know. Rather than saying your God is all knowing you have practically said that you are the all knowing one. That closely resembles Atheistic Satanism, you are God. I was under the impression that by definition Christians put their faith in the word of Christ. You defy his teaching then?

Islam seems to agree with you, seeing as you favor it over Christians. Peace loving you atheists are, perfect model of tolerance.

Quote:

When what is asked of me?
What tells you whether you are doing good or bad?
So you would rather be Muslim?
If god told you to kill me would you do it or would your moral standard stop you?
I'll add another one as well.
Why does an atheist like speaking on behalf of a Muslim?

Quote:

I understand it is freewill, but one of the groups has used freewill to make the wrong decision.

Who decides it is wrong, you or God. If it's not you and you don't believe in God, then what? If it is you that decides what justification do you use for you intolerance towards it?

Quote:

This God makes it a bit tricky to get right doesn't he?

What God, you don't believe in them remember. Or are you still speaking on behalf of Muslims?

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You may all be wasting your time and effort, you can't even decide on what's right and wrong.

Don't you think it waisting your time arguing religion when you are an atheist?

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So pretty much a game of chance? I'm just as likely to be saved as anyone really, and don't have to have my lifestyle dictated to me by centuries old superstition.

What is life if not a game of chance.

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Respect is earnt. Why should I respect a faith?

Who asked about respect?

Quote:

I have no need to vindicate my lack of faith, it's my freewill which allows me to debate religion and faith for entertainment on the internet.

I like how you danced around the question, "Why do you feel the need to degrade anothers faith?" IMO it doesn't sound like your debating. For entertainment? Sounds like you have some pretty low moral standards.

1 Reply

@Morningstarr,

Morningstarr;11074 wrote:

I'd appreciate it if you could answer the question, rather than just pick up on my obviously flippant remark.

Why would God allow mere mortals to speak on his behalf?

What god? If you mean mine i'll ask him but i don't know if he'll answer.

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;11101 wrote:

Of course it don't make sense to you, your an atheist.

So explain to me how faith makes it clear? From what you have said you have no moral code, no rules or knowledge of your "God" just a blind faith that what you are doing is right and those that don't do as you do are wrong.

Drnaline wrote:

I don't. How do you?

I don't care, do you? If you believe in "God" why no effort to please him? You believe in "God" yet don't care what it takes to join him in heaven? Are you actually a Christian at all, you can still believe in "God" yet not love him.

Drnaline wrote:

No more then you.

Far from it, I know exactly where I'm headed. Those who believe in an afterlife are the ones stumbling in the dark. You believe in an afterlife but have no idea what it will be, no way of knowing if "God" will let you into heaven or cast you down to hell. No way of knowing if you or the Muslims have got it right. Yet you criticise other religions without a clue that they might be right and you could be wrong.

Drnaline wrote:

And you do, right? That's a good one.

"God" doesn't want anything, he doesn't exist. I'm asking you if you know what your "God" wants, and you clearly don't. Living your life with no purpose or direction, just a hope that when you die "God" decides he likes you? Don't you think you should even try to impress him?

Drnaline wrote:

Islam seems to agree with you, seeing as you favor it over Christians. Peace loving you atheists are, perfect model of tolerance.

Agree with what? You have just completely sidelined the question with a completely irellevant statement. Do you defy Christ?

Drnaline wrote:

Who decides it is wrong, you or God. If it's not you and you don't believe in God, then what? If it is you that decides what justification do you use for you intolerance towards it?

If two groups take two opposing courses of action either one must be wrong, or "God" doesn't care what you do. Which is it? You claim moral superiority over Muslims, yet you also say that morality is man-made not "God" given. How do you justify your morality and your intollerance to Islam? All I was doing was making an observation based on logic.

Drnaline wrote:

What God, you don't believe in them remember. Or are you still speaking on behalf of Muslims?

Your "God", he makes it a bit tricky doesn't he?

Drnaline wrote:

Don't you think it waisting your time arguing religion when you are an atheist?

Yes, I have a lot of time to spare though so don't worry about me. Shouldn't you be out making yourself a better person?

Drnaline wrote:

What is life if not a game of chance.

Life is all down to chance if their is no omnipresent power using divine intervention to guide man's destiny. You sound more and more atheist with every post you make.

Drnaline wrote:

Who asked about respect?

You did:

Quote:

Why do you feel the need to degrade anothers faith in order to vindicate your lack there of?

To degrade means to treat with disrespect, so you brought up the issue of respect. And no I don't respect anyone who follows blindly, why should I?

Drnaline wrote:

I like how you danced around the question, "Why do you feel the need to degrade anothers faith?" IMO it doesn't sound like your debating. For entertainment? Sounds like you have some pretty low moral standards.

I answered your question fully, you didn't even understand what you were asking! Now you think you can judge my moral standards without the slightest knowledge about myself and my lifestyle? There's that arrogance again, are you sure you're not atheist? Or what's the term for believing oneself is God?

Oh yes. Insanity. Very Happy

1 Reply

@Drnaline,

Drnaline;11102 wrote:

What god? If you mean mine i'll ask him but i don't know if he'll answer.

You appear to have very little knowledge of Christian doctrine or theology, just what do you base your faith on? What everyone around you does? Face of Jesus in your soup?

1 Reply

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