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Children

 
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 01:37 pm
@Professor Chaos,
Quote:
He gets tazered??


I would assume that he gets to have his name in that pretty pink lettering, and have the 'Long Gone' title. But then again, I'm pretty new here Smile
rhopper3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 09:36 pm
@Professor Chaos,
.........sheesh I mean really get drunk, hire an expensive escort, watch an action movie marathon..lighten up
besides Why kill them when you can trade them in for a new SUV and a hunting dog to be named later
You people have entirely to much time on your hands......
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 10:03 pm
@Red cv,
Red;10961 wrote:
He gets tazered?? :p


I wish, probably just banned.
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 12:53 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;10935 wrote:
Yeah, to the point of fault, go figure. Strange that a Christian would want to do the same.
If it's God's word how can it be at fault? Muslims obviously believe in what they're doing. They say the Koran is the word of God and must be followed precisely. Just what does the Bible teach? There seems to be a few different translations.
Drnaline wrote:

So you would rather be Muslim?
If it were Gods job we wouldn't need free will. What tells you whether you are doing good or bad? Is it not your person? You can use a book as a reference but the moral decision is still the same.
I didn't realise the only choices were Christ or Mohammed. :thumbdown:

It is free will to follow the rules or not, but what exactly are the rules? They seem to change quite easily.
0 Replies
 
Ann cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 02:33 pm
@Reagaknight,
Doesn't anyone here believe in FREEWILL?

Surely you know it doesn't HAVE to be Christ or Muhammed or Buddha or Shiva or Mr Spock:afro:

It's a matter of CHOICE - but if that CHOICE affects others negatively, aka Muslim extremists bombing innocent people - then bad choice, move away, fight back:headbang:

Gxxx
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 02:36 pm
@Professor Chaos,
But if you excercise freewill against "God" you will suffer in hell. That is what Muslim extremists believe isn't it? How can you just not do it if you fear eternal damnation?
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 04:05 pm
@Professor Chaos,
Quote:
If it's God's word how can it be at fault?

The fault comes in the interpretation. If god told you to kill me would you do it or would your moral standard stop you?
Quote:
Muslims obviously believe in what they're doing.

So do Christians.
Quote:
They say the Koran is the word of God and must be followed precisely. Just what does the Bible teach?

I thought they were the words of Muhammid. Speaking for Allah?
Quote:
Just what does the Bible teach?

Depends on interpretation.
Quote:
There seems to be a few different translations.

Proabably thousands if not millions.
Quote:
I didn't realise the only choices were Christ or Mohammed.

Those are the two you used in your reference. One you make an excuse for the other you seemed in objection of.
Quote:
It is free will to follow the rules or not, but what exactly are the rules?

The ones you live by everyday of your life. Some are traffic rules, some are moral rules. You make up what you are willing to live by in a social society, if it conflicts with law there is a price for it. The law is not forcing itself on you, you new the penalty for the offence.
Quote:
They seem to change quite easily.

There as easy as changing your mind. To speed or not to speed. Should i cheat on my taxes? Boy that girl looks nice, i wonder if my wife would find out? They make up the measure of the man. I don't care where you get the info just so long as you get it. Could be a bible, torah, your parents, a neighbor. It don't matter just so long as you get it. IMO
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 04:12 pm
@Morningstarr,
Morningstarr;11033 wrote:
But if you excercise freewill against "God" you will suffer in hell. That is what Muslim extremists believe isn't it? How can you just not do it if you fear eternal damnation?
Quote:
But if you excercise freewill against "God" you will suffer in hell.

First off you have to believe in God in the first place. Do you believe you will suffer in hell if there is a God?
Quote:
That is what Muslim extremists believe isn't it?

I don't know, Red is the resident Muslim scholar.
Quote:
How can you just not do it if you fear eternal damnation?

Your assuming there interpretation is correct. Even so if that were true how come all Muslims aren't Extreme?
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 04:57 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;11034 wrote:
The fault comes in the interpretation. If god told you to kill me would you do it or would your moral standard stop you?
As an atheist I don't hear voices from God, so I wouldn't worry about it. I believe morality is subjective, and man made. Doesn't the Bible teach that morality comes from God?
Drnaline wrote:

So do Christians.
But if they find a part of the Bible they don't like, they just change it to suit how they want to live their lives.
Drnaline wrote:

I thought they were the words of Muhammid. Speaking for Allah?
Muslims believe it is the literal word of God revealed to Mohammed.
Drnaline wrote:

Depends on interpretation.
Seeing as eternal damnation may be at stake shouldn't there be a more concrete set of rules? How do you know you're living to the correct interpretation? You might be just as damned as the heathens.
Drnaline wrote:

Those are the two you used in your reference. One you make an excuse for the other you seemed in objection of.
Excuse for what? I just admire the Muslims dedication over the Christian equivalent. They don't try to re-write the word of God because they decide that they want to be able to eat pork, for example.
Drnaline wrote:

The ones you live by everyday of your life. Some are traffic rules, some are moral rules. You make up what you are willing to live by in a social society, if it conflicts with law there is a price for it. The law is not forcing itself on you, you new the penalty for the offence.
No, I mean what are the specific rules for living your life as a Christian? Muslims have a cast iron set of rules, the literal word of God, to base their lifestyles on. Christians just pick whichever parts of the Bible they see fit and forget the rest. How do you know God isn't pissed off about that?
Drnaline wrote:

There as easy as changing your mind. To speed or not to speed. Should i cheat on my taxes? Boy that girl looks nice, i wonder if my wife would find out? They make up the measure of the man. I don't care where you get the info just so long as you get it. Could be a bible, torah, your parents, a neighbor. It don't matter just so long as you get it. IMO
What info?

In regards to the rule of God, I would imagine the penalties for just changing them when you want to be quite severe. Faith in God aside, you then need faith in whoever translated the Good Book for you! Talk about a long shot of actually getting it right.
0 Replies
 
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 05:08 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;11035 wrote:
First off you have to believe in God in the first place. Do you believe you will suffer in hell if there is a God?
If there is a God, then probably. But I don't believe so it doesn't matter. I was speaking on behalf of a Muslim believer though. Why should they just stop their extreme actions if they truly believe it is God's way? Would you stop believing just because people didn't like what you were doing? Would you defy God if he told you to kill?
Drnaline wrote:

I don't know, Red is the resident Muslim scholar.

Your assuming there interpretation is correct. Even so if that were true how come all Muslims aren't Extreme?

No, they're assuming their interpretation is correct. As you assume your version is, as Jews assume their version is etc, etc...........

What I would say is, at least their version has stayed the same for the past thousand years or whatever it is. If their version of events was true when it was first revealed, at least it would still be true now. I don't think you can say the same for Christianity, Jesus' teaching has been perverted over the centuries to suit man's desires. If your boy is the right one, you may still all be making a pigs ear of worshipping him. Maybe the Jehovas have got it right. Wink

For what it's worth, I prefer how Christianity has developed. I mean, it doesn't really matter God doesn't exist anyway, but I still admire Muslim stubborn stupidity over wishy washy policy changes. I'll give them that.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:25 pm
@Professor Chaos,
Well, Morningstarr, I assume that you're talking about Leviticus when you say we choose our beliefs. Leviticus is the set of rules for the Levites, the Jewish priests. Obviously, while some rules therein are still relevant, there are naturally going to be parts of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, that are geared towards life at the time it was written; for example, bans on pork (possibly more unsafe than other foods).
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:31 pm
@Professor Chaos,
Oh, and also, Muslims don't follow their rules without question. They just ban the parts of the Koran that are against the usually unchanging opinion of the imams, like with the verses that may possibly,slightly, just a little bit disagree with the 'Kill, convert, or tax all infidels and oppress women' majority of verses on the subject.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 09:53 pm
@Professor Chaos,
Quote:
Doesn't the Bible teach that morality comes from God?

Not the way i see it.
Quote:
Muslims believe it is the literal word of God revealed to Mohammed.

So the Koran is a book of what muhammid interpreted allahs words to be.
Quote:
Seeing as eternal damnation may be at stake shouldn't there be a more concrete set of rules?

If i'm wrong about my faith, like you i have nothing to worry about.
Quote:
How do you know you're living to the correct interpretation?

I don't. How do you know?
Quote:
Excuse for what? I just admire the Muslims dedication over the Christian equivalent. They don't try to re-write the word of God because they decide that they want to be able to eat pork, for example.

They don't have to rewrite there book, they just behead who ever opposes it.
Quote:
Muslims have a cast iron set of rules, the literal word of God, to base their lifestyles on.

Then why haven't they all blown themselves up?
Quote:
How do you know God isn't pissed off about that?

I don't.
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:06 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;11050 wrote:
Well, Morningstarr, I assume that you're talking about Leviticus when you say we choose our beliefs. Leviticus is the set of rules for the Levites, the Jewish priests. Obviously, while some rules therein are still relevant, there are naturally going to be parts of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, that are geared towards life at the time it was written; for example, bans on pork (possibly more unsafe than other foods).


What makes some rules more relevant than others? How are you supposed to know if you're doing Gods bidding or not? Why do some Christians have conflicting beliefs on homosexuality, for example? Will one group be refused entrance to heaven?
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:19 am
@Professor Chaos,
Quote:
Why should they just stop their extreme actions if they truly believe it is God's way? Would you stop believing just because people didn't like what you were doing? Would you defy God if he told you to kill?


They should stop their extreme actions, because they have a consience which oposes that idea, if not then they will eventually commit a terrorist act. I wouldn't defy him, I would gently ask him to explain himself, you see first he tells us not to kill, then he tell us the oposite? I doubt God would ask any of us to do that anyways, if he wants someone dead what's stoping him? Unless it is not God asking...

Quote:
In regards to the rule of God, I would imagine the penalties for just changing them when you want to be quite severe. Faith in God aside, you then need faith in whoever translated the Good Book for you! Talk about a long shot of actually getting it right.


Personally I stick to the New Testament, one reason is that many times during his teaching Jesus said : Hear those who have ears to listen. That identifies an implied meaning to what he had previously said, that requires interpretation to find, IMO you should do that yourself, not rely on anyone else to interprate for you.

Also these rules that were set up, be them in any secular religion, are directly related to the needs of the people at the time, being so we also must relate them to our needs in our time.

Quote:
Seeing as eternal damnation may be at stake shouldn't there be a more concrete set of rules? How do you know you're living to the correct interpretation? You might be just as damned as the heathens.


To me eternal damnation is a mechanizim to control the actions of people, it is one aspect of the bible that was never interpreted in a diferent context by the Christian Church, at least not to my knowledge. What you "suffer" for your sins is the eternal guilt of having made them, but by repenting and learning from your mistakes you can be sure not to make them again.

Quote:
No, they're assuming their interpretation is correct. As you assume your version is, as Jews assume their version is etc, etc...........


I choose to believe, do they?

Quote:
No, I mean what are the specific rules for living your life as a Christian? Muslims have a cast iron set of rules, the literal word of God, to base their lifestyles on. Christians just pick whichever parts of the Bible they see fit and forget the rest. How do you know God isn't pissed off about that?


He gave us free-will, I am sure he forsaw the consequences, but no doubt the benefits outweight it considerably.
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:22 am
@Professor Chaos,
Quote:
What makes some rules more relevant than others? How are you supposed to know if you're doing Gods bidding or not? Why do some Christians have conflicting beliefs on homosexuality, for example? Will one group be refused entrance to heaven?


Are we perfect? To be treated as such? We make more mistakes then solutions, but we try, hopefully that is enough or we are all are doomed together.
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:30 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;11051 wrote:
Oh, and also, Muslims don't follow their rules without question. They just ban the parts of the Koran that are against the usually unchanging opinion of the imams, like with the verses that may possibly,slightly, just a little bit disagree with the 'Kill, convert, or tax all infidels and oppress women' majority of verses on the subject.


Can you cite any examples of these bans?

After a quick read up I agree that the Koran is far from untouched, it has been re-written on numerous occasions. But I believe that most Muslims are ignorant of this fact. What excuse do Christians use for their constant re-interpretation?
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:39 am
@Professor Chaos,
The idea contained in the Bible is of course Gods, his "mind", but the way it is said, and the customs are of the age, these have to be adapted and rewriten, or else they won't apply to todays common man.
Morningstarr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:50 am
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;11054 wrote:
Not the way i see it.
The Bible teaches that morality must be objective and all subjectivity leads to sin, does it not? If this is the case you are sinning Drnaline, and not doing God's bidding. If you can sin against God isn't it hypocritical to condemn others for doing it?
Drnaline wrote:

So the Koran is a book of what muhammid interpreted allahs words to be.
The Koran is meant to be the very words of God, spoken to Mohammed through the angel Gabriel. He then repeats these revelations to his followers who wrote it all down. Muslims believe it is the literal word of God. Not a translation or interpretation.
Drnaline wrote:

If i'm wrong about my faith, like you i have nothing to worry about.
But you believe in a divine super being, does it not worry you that you could be following his teachings incorrectly. Or just backing the wrong horse? If you believe in an afterlife then surely you must have some concerns about what will take place in this afterlife? I don't believe in an afterlife so I am blissfully ignorant. If I am wrong I will face my consequences when I die, but you obviously care about pleasing God or you wouldn't be a practicing Christian.
Drnaline wrote:

I don't. How do you know?
"God", by definition, does not exist. All spirituality is meaningless to me. You on the other hand have embraced the existence of "God" so surely you have some concern over keeping the old fella happy?
Drnaline wrote:

They don't have to rewrite there book, they just behead who ever opposes it.
Exactly! Because their belief is that is what God wants.
Drnaline wrote:

Then why haven't they all blown themselves up?
They're not told they must blow themselves up, they're just offered an incentive.
Drnaline wrote:

I don't.
And it doesn't bother you? This is what I'm getting at, Christians just don't seem to take their God as seriously as Muslims do.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Feb, 2007 06:58 am
@Professor Chaos,
Christians on the most part have guidelines, not set down rules. Faith in God is just that, the want for a moral life comes from that faith, not the other way around.
 

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