Islam? A better religion for minorites

You said the christian violence was in the past, so i felt the need to bring you up to speed.

Because all those victims were obviously victims of Christ's message. The bible is very clear on the issues of persecuting and killing Jews, blacks, and Muslims. And that Jesus, with his hatemongering message, "Love thy neighbor," what a jerk.

Does that change the fact that it hapened? No.
so your were wrong when you said it doesn't happen!

I'm afraid I don't see your logic. The killings were obviously not in accordance with actual Christian values. So what makes them Christian in nature?

Christian religion was the motivating factor for those killings and explosions, so how is that any different than the people who were motivated by the Islam religion to kill and blow things up?

Because they can't find any real basis for those killings in the Chrisitian religion. Those people are obviously acting out of hate, and not because of their religion.

On the other hand, what the Muslim extremists are doing is in accordance with the Koran.

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the overall context of these verses is defensive war, however, there are two worrisome pieces to this passage. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution." The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah."



Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."



Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."



Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Sura (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured enemy is not an act of self-defense.



Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"



Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"



Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."



Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Sura (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."


Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."



Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"



Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."



Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"



Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"



Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites," those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

You've obviously heard of 'anglicization!'

Have you read the Koran, the Qu'ran, or al-Qu'ran?



Why should I read it when I can get this off the internet?

exactly my point, you don't know anything other than what you've been told!

Bible God's Prophet Moses Kills Egyptian
EXODUS 2:L11-12
"And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren. And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand."

Bible God Forbids Women from Speaking in Church
1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Oh, and where'd you copy and paste your stuff from?

2 Kings: 2:23-24



First verse I searched and look at what comes up, an apparent explanation.

Second is so flimsy it argues against itself.

So God wrote to the Corinthians?

Notice the underlying themes, anyway. The second group from the Bible had many accounts of actions allegedly by God or other singular accounts, or now defunct commands, or commands that do not apply to Christians at all (little New Testament stuff), the first is almost all timeless commandments to Muslims, which are still taken as the true commandments of Allah. Also, the second is dishonest. Looking at a couple more, Lot's daughters did that because they were convinced humanity had been destroyed and they needed to repopulate the earth.

also it is irrelevant whether the acts were justified by the holy books, that makes no difference to the people the atrocities were commited on, just that the people commiting the atrocies believed that they were acting according to their book....so in this regard the christians are no better than the muslims!

That makes no sense, because it is easy to see that Muslim extremists have been much more violent than Christians in recent years.

You're talking about people who live in third world nations, of course people from 3rd-world nations are violent, but it has naught to do with religion. Violent people will always find reasons to be violent, just look at Darfur! The muslims who live in America are not particulary violent people.

You realize the Sudan is Muslim.

The Muslim world has been violent since the conception of Islam, it's merely a continuation of violence based on the ideals of Islam.

exactly, the wars in sudan aren't over religion it's over blood-diamonds and a corrupt government.

Christanity rose in popularity through conquest!

Did I ever say that every war perpetuated by Muslims must be religious?

Religion is a factor in wars. Not the only factor, not always a factor, but a big factor.

That doesn't change anything about Islam, though you seem to think it does.
Christianity rose through a lot of conversion and some conquest. Islam rose through conquest much more than Christianity.

Do you regret it? You live in a highly modernized country with an extremely good quality of life. A product of Western civilization, which was molded in part by Christianity.

HA! If your talking about all wars started by a religion christanity wins hands down, there is nothing that even comes close, but if you really wanna go down that road be my guest.

That's ridiculous, Europe, South America, North America, and parts of africa all christianized through conquested not conversion.

prove it.

Go ahead.

South America & North America were Christianized through cultural conversion, not by a grassroots Christian conquering movement. The nations that conquered them used Christianization as a policy, a matter of state. Africa and Europe, which came earlier were partly conqered, partly converted.

How exactly did Islam spread from a small community in Arabia to extending from Asia minor to the Iberian peninsula and to India. Peaceful conversion, I suppose.

You realize what institution kept knowledge alive through the Middle Ages? What has been the major religion in the West for centuries. How could Christianity not have any effect on Western Civ? Christian philosophers have been around for forever, many very influential on Western Civilization.

1241-1242 Mongol invasion of Europe

what the hell are you talking about? There is a reason they call it the "spanish conquest" and the leaders were called the "conquistadors"

do you really the think the Inca and the meso-american people really wanted to be christians? The same goes for north america, most of the native peoples were killed the majority of the christians of the americas were from europe NOT converts!

Africa as well was a conquest.

that doesn't even compare to christanity! How did christanity start rom a small group of jews in the middle-east to cover all of North and south america europe pacific islands and africa?

was there even a need for the keeping of knowledge had of rome not fallen? Rome had the largest collection of knowledge on earth at that time, and who destroyed it? The christians! Had they have not destroyed the library we would not have had to reinvent everything and might be almost a 1,000 years more advanced in our knowledge and technology!