Islam? A better religion for minorites

While we appreciate your assurances that Sunni Isalm is "THE" Islam and Shiites etc are wrong and not following Islam, reality is that they say the same thing about you - and they believe it as strongly as you do. So, the world looks around at what ALL Islam is doing throughout the world (( TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in the World )) and we cannot help but see that all evidence points to ISLAM being the problem .

-- since ALL the other Muslims devotely follow and believe their holy book and are proclaiming they are doing the evils they do throughout the world in the name of allah.

If that bothers you, take it up with them. of course, they'll gladly kill you as the heretic

I'm sick and tired of you muslims stating how all the crap throughout the world "isn't true Islam" - When, in fact, those commiting atrocities throughought the world are doing it in the name of islam. It's really YOU who doesn't get it. You're correct in some aspects - all muslim nations are dysfunctional and use the words of the quran to justify their barbarism. What you need to do, my fellow human, is turn your persuasive arguments to the millions of muslims throughout the world. islam needs a reformation - You all need to separate mosque from state - and throw out the primitive parts of islam. It's not the "perfect" religion ~ I've read up on it's claims - and I see what goes on throughout the world in its name. Your god is most definitely NOT the Judeao-Christian God of Abraham.

What has islam brought to the world? Even in it's alleged "golden age" - that was only due to barbaric people militarily overcoming more advanced societies. As sharia law was imposed, since it's NOT from the one true God, those societies crumbled into the dungheaps of what we witness now in the world. It's islam and sharia law that is the problem

If you want to convince anyone different - I suggest you convince the tens of millions (that "1%" of extremists) of followers of muhhamed that they are the ones who are incorrect. Quit telling us it's wonderful and perfect - because your fellow muslims would just as gladly cut off your head as an infidel as they would mine

So, no where on earth can we find "true Islam", huh? well, that's a pretty sad state of a religion, wouldn't you think??

Son, logic and reason and an impartial eye looking at the events of the world today only point in one direction - islam allows for atrocities to unbelievers - and all over the world we see it's affects

May the one true God open your eyes and have mercy on your soul

and may there be true peace in Israel......soon

ok ofcourse its my word against theirs for you , but as a sunni am the majority , so its our view and understanding of Islam that should be considered ,

Exactly , and so in order to pass a judgement one must educate himself on what those muslims you mentioned call their holy book , and find out where is it written in it to do what they do ( extreme measures )

If you know a little bit about Islam this statement of yours should make you think of them as non-muslims as a muslim isnot allowed to kill unless in selfdefence or in war.

if some one commites a crime and say's its because God told him to , will you believe him? , if a guy tried to kill you and when caught and asked why he said because jesus told him to will you think that christianity is evil or will you take that guy to the nearest mental health institution ?

so what if a million terrorists say Islam told them to kill the infidels, read the Quraan their are a billion translated versions , their are alot of things you will not understand but you can ask some one who will explain it , find out the truth for your self , why base your opinions on speculation when all you need to do is read a book ?

and btw the moment i make a suggestion of " reforming " Islam i seaze to be a muslim, and we dont need that , we need to understand it thats all.

you dont know much about the history of Islam do you ?

all modern science was built on the leftovers of muslim scientist during what you call the dark ages of your european history , it is true that these nations crumbled but that was after the opression and greed that fell on them from their own kings and royal families , sharia law was imposed since the days of the prophet and it drove this new and young nation into the most civilized and advanced one of its time, and from the day the kings started ignoring sharia laws they started falling, the same scenario happened in spain.

tell me , how does a religion allows for atrocities to unbelievers? isnot it through its teachings and holy versus?

show me how Islam did that?

well the place you got this info from failed to mention to you that these are the choices for those with whom we are at war , for example if an Islamic nation declares war on a non-Islamic nation or the opposite , only then do these become the choices, and an Islamic nation is allowed to declare war only in one case(other than self defence) if that said nation refuses to allow Islam clerics to teach non-muslims about Islam , meaning if that nation did not allow us to try and convert people to Islam , which means that in this time ( 21st century) with human rights its impossible for war to be declared because i can go to the vatican pope and invite him to Islam.

P.S. by sharia law we are forced to sign peace deals(as long as the conditions are just) with any one who wants to , please dont forget this.

Dire position of minorities in America?? You mean the America where more people of all faiths, "colors" and beliefs can come to gain wealth and comfort like never has been possible in the history of humanity??

I think maybe there is some hope for mankind after all. ;-) Thank you.

Unfortunately, it appears that extremism and jihad is gaining momentum in the world. Now, I DO have to tell you

So, we share a commonality there! A distrust of government!! ;-)

If your were to check out those two sites by ex-muslims, you could find all the scriptural quotes you want that extremists use to justify their actions. From the quran as well as the hadiths. It really does boil down to interpretation though. It's just that they choose to interpret the book to allow them their actions.

and killed people who had nothing to do with the cartoons

So, while you and I KNOW "self-defense" really means lliterally if you are physically being attacked, the extremists use the excuse of defending the religions "honor".

How did you feel about the cartoon fiasco? (the one where the Danish newspaper had some cartoons about your prophet). ANd while we're at it, how did you feel about the murder of Theo VanGogh???

with a superficial reading of the quran, it can be said that all those good qualities of decency you mention only apply muslim to muslim. And there is plenty of "interpretation" that allows for ANYTHING against the unbeliever

I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears a mullah stating that, if you see a Kuffar in the street - you can rob him - you can take him as a slave - you can kill him. He is an unbeliever. It is just such "interpretations" that people like you and I need to stand up against.

You're correct - if someone commits a crime and says God told him to, in the west, we cart them off to a mental ward. In Gaza and the Left Bank, they name streets for them....

While we in the west do appreciate your words that the thousands of events througout the world are "not true islam" -- it really really would be beneficial if you all told the ones commiting the atrocites that they are wrong - instead of telling us we are wrong, when we merely point out what the islamists themselves are telling us when they say they are justified in your scripture, while we're cleaning up after a bus, hotel or nightclub bombing

I mean, come on! - One could say that what Islam contributed was only due to them picking up the pieces from the Romans, who picked up the pieces from the Greeks, who picked up some pieces from the Persians, who picked things up from the Babylonians - and on and on we go.

Let's look around today -- Why is it that Mexico (Mexico!!) translates more books in one year - than the ENTIRE combined "glory" of muslim nations?? I will believe that Islam allows for science and advancement when I see it. If it's the rulers of muslim nations keeping you all down - then REVOLT and REFORM! We did it in the west.... "We, the people..." You and I, brother

A real good analogy is that coporal punishment of spanking works, when used properly, with little children -- but you don't go spanking adults!! So, sharia (spanking in the analogy) works great with barbaric people (children) but for adults (civilized societies) it does NOT work

Western law works better

Do you really and honestly believe that in this day and age, cutting off the hand of a thief is the way to go?? Or stoning a woman for adultery?? Do you also honestly believe that it takes TWO women's testimony to equal a mans?? That is all part of sharia

The muslim world would be better off if it stopped demanding everyone learn the quran exclusively, and started teaching it's children how to read, write and do math. Only then can you have a chance to have another "golden age".

There is waaayyy too much for me to do here. Just check out those two sites by ex-Muslims and you'll see all the scriptural justification used throughout the world for doing anything to the unbeliever

Oh, and by the way - here's a little historical tidbit from America:: Early in this nations history, Thomas Jefferson had to deal with the Barbary pirates - muslims who would attack shipping and take hostage (as slaves!) men from our nation, as well as the other European nations. When Jefferson asked their leader what right they had to do this, the reply was that it was written and commanded of them in their holy book - which is WHY Jefferson had that copy of the quran that Ellis (the first muslim elected to public office here) wanted to swear in on. Jefferson wanted to read up on their beliefs - "know thine enemy" and all that.
What ended up happening is that America (and Europe) paid them off to stop the piratical attacks -- until eventually they started demanding too much and we finally went to war with them to stop it

Oh, and by the way - here in America and in the west, anyone can become a public official - no matter their religious beliefs. That's an impossibility in Muslim nations. Is this sharia?? or is it just the way the rulers of Muslim nations do things?? In sharia, can a non-Muslim take part in governing?? This is why there needs to be a separation of mosque and state

being the good Muslim that I truly do know you are, sir, the world is divided into Darul Islam - The house of Islam(submission) and Darul Harb (sp?) -- the house of WAR

those choices are only given to "the people of the book" (Jews and Christians) - atheists and such just get murdered straight out.

Now tell me again, how come Muslim nations don't allow for the same?? Proselytizing any other religion in a Muslim nation is a capitol crime - often punishable by death

you can sign peace treaties (I believe the period is for 8 years, since that's what your prophet did)

just like the prophet - you can use that to build up arms until you are stronger - then break the treaty at will and attack - because the are only kuffar, after all - and the prophet did it..... Again, there isn't enough space to quote all the quranic and hadith text - but you can find all those answers on the two sites, by ex-Muslims, that I mentioned.

Oh, and by the way - do you agree with sharia that someone who renounces Islam should die?? Or is there TRULY no compulsion in your religion??

You're the first Muslim I met who could rationally discuss all these things!!

By "reform" no one means reforming the words in your book - I mean the same reform that Christianity went through - rethinking it's INTERPRETATION of the words in their book -- and this is so very badly needed in Islam!!

Can you imagine nukes in the hands off Al Qaeda!! (may God helps us all!!)

And lastly - I was also pleased with seeing that, though you are a Sudanese Muslim, you are against the government there. What has been going on in Sudan has been a pet peeve of mine for decades - ethnic and religious cleansing of Christians and black Muslims. And It's nice to hear you are against that

Take care - and may God protect you from your fellow Muslims who truly would kill you for your moderate views of Islam - because they would consider you the heretic and unbeliever.

Or has all this merely been exercise in taqiyya for you? -- (lying to unbelievers, as sanctioned by your prophet and your holy book, in order to advance Islam by any means.)

I believe you are sincere. But just because someone is honestly sincere, that doesn't mean they aren't blind to the realities of what their fellow co-religionists are doing, thousands of times a year throughout the world, in the name of the same god. Please!! Tell THEM that they are wrong!! Not us.

Mousyyyy...come on over to America and look around, huh?

While, just as Jesus said, "the poor will always be with us", because he knew that some people really DO make bad choices and keep themselves down,

if you look at the over-all stats, you'll find minorities DO have it better here than anywhere in the world!! I once heard it said of a man who had met an African, and one of the African's dreams was to visit America -- so he could see fat poor people.

One interesting statistic is that people with alot of melanin in their skin ("black" people) coming over from Africa, do MUCH better, on average, than the American of African descent here for generations. Because they take advantage of the opportuniteis afforded them!! Instead of screaming the vicitm mentality b.s.

The KKK?? puhleeease. You'll have to try harder than that. We've grown up well past that.

One thing is for SURE ~ Numerically, they are no where even close to the TENS OF MILLIONS of islamists and extremists (not to be confused with good people who follow the good parts and interpretations of islam).

Christ is NOT "just for whites", and shame on you for denigrating the millions of Latin, Spanish, Indonesian, Chinese, Russian, "black" - well, EVERYONE of every different nationality on the globe, who are Christian by intelligent choice!! ~

I promise you we won't riot in the streets and kill innocent people in defense of some misbegotten honor though! What we'll do is just laugh at you....and pray for you.

Jews part of the "conspiracy"?? ROTFL!! **and a heavy sigh**

<<<get behind me satan....>>>>

well i hope i deserve this much credit loools

an important aim for me is to separate the word Jihad from being mentioned in the same breath with extremism, Islam say's the hardest type of jihad is a word of honesty and truth in the face of a tyrant ( thats one understanding of jihad thats been missing) .

(JoJoJams)I'm pleasantly surprised to hear of your (and many of your friends) "hatred towards beards", due to thinking they could be government agents. No matter a persons (or nations) religion, those darn "governments" and "politicians" can sure be a pain. So, we share a commonality there! A distrust of government!! ;-)

(Politically-Wrong)
Apparently yes, and if it came to be known around here what am doing online i am not so sure what can possibly happen.

this is absolutely wrong , it shouldnot have happened , personaly am not sure what Islam say's about what to do in such a case (the cartoons ) but violence against those who had nothing to do with it is surely out of the pic, regarding the one who made the cartoons i wish i can understand what was he trying to accomplish, btw i never till date saw those cartoons.

Add to that defending Islamic nations against invasions and occupation( am sure you know what am refering to), regardless of whether that nations exists in the same continent as i , or the said invasion or conflict happened during my life time, its irrelevant to me ( i say this because a couple of members were trying to convince me otherwise) .

what do you assume i felt like? hatred pure and simple , if there was a way i could bankrupt that news paper i would have done it, and this is because am not sure what Islam say's to do in this case bankruptcy feels like a least thing to repay the news paper.
if it had been some other religions prophet attacked they would have repayed with doing the same to Jesus (pbuh) but as a muslim i wouldnot do that since i believe him to be a prophet from God too .

the west must put all sacred stuff under some federal law protection

I mean if you think that I will say in answer to the movie this van fellow directed that he has a right to express himself then you are totally mistaken , what he has terribly insulted without logic or necessity is sacred to me , which means its more valuable to me than my own life , if the west intends to live peacefully with the moderate parts of islam such things must not happen( van’s movie- the cartoons) these things are too sacred to me to give a **** about freedom of speech , hell its more important to me than life it self for get some law, and that guy van he had it coming., there are many many critics of islam , as your self jojo , but do you think I will look at that van fellow the same way as you? NO.

may be true but it remains to be wrongful interpretation, as a muslim i can live peacefully with a christian neighbour , hell i can marry his daughter, if Islam allows astrocities against them why would it allow us to marry into them?

man that Mullah is waaaaaaay off base , can you tell me where was that? i mean the country.

are you trying to tell me the conditions in the west are comparable to those in Gaza and the left bank? am not condoning naming streets after murderers, but if you are going to refer to that conflict we better take it from the begenning.

big misunderstanding here my friend, am not trying to tell any one that they are wrong , you (and every citizen of the US except the politicians) have every right to view Islam as you do, whenever you turn on your TV you can see and hear news of sick deeds by people calling themselves muslims, you can see suicidal attacks against civilians in Israel and sometimes the US and UK, you listen to statistics regarding the 911 attacks and so on, its perfectly understandable , and since we ( as those representing true Islam ) are unable to convey to you( as US citizens in your homes and life) our stance and understanding and mentality , this becomes our shortcoming, not your misunderstanding or wrongfullness (spl) , about telling the extremists they are wrong do you really believe they will amend their way's?

, also do you think that it is easy to uproot the extremists roots? their financing ?

do you think it is easy to discredit their propaganda that is daily gaining because of hate crimes commited against ordinary muslims across the globe?

and in particular Iraq and Palestine!!

you must also remember that what you call moderate muslims and i call muslims (without moderate) are being oppressed by aotucratic regimes , their belongings confiscated , their gatherings forbidden, and their mentality rediculed by government controlled media!!

the US government or specifically the CIA was involved in overthrowing a democratically elected government in Sudan ( 1964-1969) this government was formed of what you would call a moderate Islamic party headed by Elsadig Elmahdi who has had his education in oxford and is known and respected in political circles in the west only to put a military government in his place headed by general Numeiry who was actually leaning towards the soviet union in his first two years of rule but became a strong ally of the US after that, this same government was responsible for the torture and death of many opposing parties and people, and helped todays governing party accumilate wealth that enabled them to overthrow another democratic government later on, this political party is responsible for whats happening in Darfor and the murders of many many innocent Sudanese citizens of different political affiliations, thats an example of what US interference did to moderate and democratic Islamic nations.

thats exactly what am saying , we did contribute during the golden age by picking up from where other nations stoped, and then others( modern day europe) continued .

as i said Islam now is in a very sorry state , am not at all surprised at this bit of news, the continuation of dictatorships ruling over us is the main culprit , not only today’s governments but their predecessors and their predecessors.

let me ask you this, how embarrassing would it be for you if you were to be publicly spanked ( the common punish for kids !! ) , extremely embarrassing i would guess right? plus in sharia law , the cases for which flogging or spanking is the punishment could be counted with one hand , and is mainly used to embarrass the culprit so much so as to not commit the felony again, this is usualy done for minor crimes where sharia law left it for the judge , as in if some one insulted another person publicly its upto the judge to decide the punishment , their is a condition that for flogging ,the sentence ( or number of floggings ) must be less than the established numbers of floggings for crimes in sharia law.

in regards to cutting the hands of a thief there are a lot of conditions that must be met before that judgment is passed , for instance the value of the stolen goods ( i can recall right now how much but i will get back to you on that) , plus their must be very very strong evidence that removes all shadow of doubt, i mean fingerprints prove where a person has touched, but video tapes show you stealing, John Grisham would call it irrefutable evidence ,
about stoning its regardless of gender ( i mean its not for women only men too) and several factors must be established before stoning they are:-
1- the accused is or was married.
2- the accused was witnessed by 4 people together (i mean all the four should have seen the act of adultery together ).
3- all the four witnesses must state that they actually saw the male organ entering the vagina ( i have to be this clear) , for example if they saw the two just fondling each other even if butt naked it does not amount to stoning.

i also must mention that during the life time of prophet mohamed (pbuh) authenticated hadith proves he allowed only one incidence of stoning the proof was admittance of the act ( which is the only other way ) .

now that you understand the very difficult conditions under which stoning can be made in sharia law, there is another angle to cover, why would islam allow stoning in the first place? isnot it too cruel?

this is how i see it, a person or a couple who allow themselves to indulge in adultery even after being married and quenching a human need(whether biological emotional or physical) in a lawful way and still they want to have practice sex outside marriage then these are seriously in need of psychiatric help , but those who are so unlawful and un-abiding with absolutely no sense of shame to the extent of allowing themselves to be witnessed by four people ( what are the odds of that happening? ) these people are challenging our core values , they don’t give a **** about society, and are totally deprived of decency and common knowledge .

must keep in your mind that the practice of sex outside marriage is the source of all evil to society, in other words high rates of crime, murder and rapes are mostly caused by outcasts of society , in the muslim world children born out of wedlock constitute 90% of societies outcasts , the results of wide spread practice of adultery will be the direct cause of a fall of the western world if its not controlled soon.
i dont want my society to suffer from this.

The islamic madrassas you are referring to here we go to them ( in my country) before the age of entering first grade in school, the islamic madrassas for all ages teach all modern science like mathematics and physics, and they concentrate on Islamic studies a bit more than regular government schools, we dont think it is enough for a person to only learn the Quraan and nothing else , and please allow me to say that it would be stupid of you to assume that the majority of Muslims believe that either.

((this in reply to my requesting he visit the website links to see scripture extremists use))

i wanted you to state some so i can point out the way those verses should have been understood , the obvious way , the way it has been said.

((in response to comment of Barbary pirates))
thanks for the info, these guys u mention , they are nothing but typical pirates , whom on which the rule of the marine world should have been applied to.

i can reply and say i will believe that America will allow a Muslim to be its president when i see it, but i understand that the law's allow it, but the law's also state its the people that choose, if a candidate can win their hearts and minds then he can be a president regardless of all else.

regarding non-Muslims taking part in government am not sure about that too , but i think that its a necessity at least in my country ( where we have minorities of other religions) they should have representatives in office, but i would still prefer the head of state to be a Muslim.(on the condition that minorities can live according to their own religious laws with consideration of feelings to the Muslim majority)

((need to read my last post - too long to reproduce: basically, I stated the Islamists, per Islam, divide the world in to Darul Islam and Darul Harb -- The "house of Islam<submission>" and the "house of war" - so islamists see theirselves at perpetual war outside of islamic nations. It's THEIR own words -- not mine)))
sorry that’s news to me, i think Islam orders me not to attack those who do not attack me, have peaceful co-existence as the base for relationships with others, and apply the three choices to those am at war with.

((the choices are, per the quran, for the people of the book (Jews and Christians) and they are: Convert, pay the tax and be second class citizens (actually worse than the old "Jim Crow" stuff), or die/be killed -- but there is no cumpulsion in religion, mind you...***chuckle***))

those choices are applied to those with whom we are at war, regardless of religion, that’s my understanding and the oppressed majority (the common man or woman).

COMBONI is one of the oldest Christian establishments in Sudan , they have built churches in many areas ( actually not so far from my own home) , they have schools, they have colleges , they have hospitals ( i have been treated in one of them several times ) and in my country its not punishable by death, which means Islam does not teach it, Christians in Sudan are known to own the best real estate in the capital, its like this is their business, i have and had many Christian friends, many of them discussed Christianity with me without fear and they did not think they had to fear anything, some countries may consider it a capital crime but its allowed to preach Christianity in personal levels like in a church or if you establish clubs and the sorts, but surely not on TV or radio it would not be allowed anywhere in the Islamic world.

absolutely wrong , i can not and will not break a treaty of peace unless you willfully and intentionally break it first and all hope of returning to it has been exhausted , you say prophet mohamed (pbuh) did it i say he did not, the website you mentioned is blocked from here i can not access it so just copy and paste the hadiths or verses or whatever they base their accusations upon.

there is no compulsion to enter into the religion , regarding the death of those who renounce it that’s my understanding of what sharia law's teach , but i need more info on that, i will get back to you on that.

exactly the first one you met , there are many you have not met , who do not have access to the internet , and do not know how to converse in English fluently enough to discuss these matters , they are here alright.

if by reform you mean correcting the misunderstandings of many Muslims of what the Quraan teaches , am with you 100% .

they would not give you enough time to imagine anything.

I am against them , and against their deeds in darfor and the south too , this government should go, i hope they stick to the peace treaty signed last year that will make elections a possibility.

any one who would kill me inspite of my saying the Shahadatan is not a fellow Muslim of mine

you seem to know about Islam more than me loools , there is nothing as Taqiya in my understanding at least, actually this word means a cap in Arabic , lying is allowed only during warfare ( bombs flying around) against the enemy as a means of deception, and to bring two friends back together , or husband and wife back together.

those you refer to as co-religionist are not in fact what you call them( in my opinion) , they shame the name of Islam, and I totally deny any ties to them.

That's one helluva post there PW.

minorities are hardly basking in wealth,comfort or good health...The Ku Klux Christ is for whites and jews are part of the conspiracy

Quote:

an important aim for me is to separate the word Jihad from being mentioned in the same breath with extremism, Islam say's the hardest type of jihad is a word of honesty and truth in the face of a tyrant ( thats one understanding of jihad thats been missing) .

That ties in well with the link I posted in my comment to Sword of god - The link was by the same guy he quoted. After reading the article and hearing your words - I'll join you in that, my friend. Hirabah, then. Does that work with you? Or what is your suggestion to replace "Jihad" in the description of what the hundreds of thousands of people who refer to themselves as Jihadists should be?? I like your interpretation for jihad - I prefer a Word over a Sword any day, myself. There is an old saying in the west that "the pen is mightier than the sword". ((mostly only when there is free speach!)) Personally, I like the pen, but I also have a sword - and I pray God allow my aim to be true

Do you all (the average citizen) have the right to bear arms over there? For all the propaganda to the contrary, truly - no one here in America (joe average citizen) is ever afraid of a "knock in the night" and being hauled off somewhere for intterogation. ~ Just for using the internet and speaking their mind. But you're Muslim - so you'll more than likely be aok in Sudan. Are you a Sudanese of African or Arabic descent?

ONE picture, to make a political/theological/ideological statement and get people THINKING!!!!! The worst one printed in the paper was an image of your prophet with a turban that looked like a bomb. That was all. And what it was meant to convey is EXACTLY what you have experienced here by people - TRYING to show that the teachings mohammed taught -- are used by those that would blow up schools, busses, hotels, and nightclubs. And, of course, the muslim worlds gets mad at us for pointing that out. In the west, the cartoon would have been an opening for DIALOGUE to talk about the realities of what is going on in the name of your prophet and your god. Instead of talking about it MAN to MAN - as you and I are doing here, a large chunk of the Muslim world instead gets mad, riots and kills people -- Because we're trying to point out what is being done in the name of your prophet and your god. you and I have already covered that point of interpretation though

People gripe and scream that we "created" or "support" those in power over you, (even though it's just been trying to pick the "lesser of two evils" in who can be a "friend" in the world/nations scene - letting them run themselves! instead of running things for them)

BUT, when we go in and take one of the pieces of sh1t out, and try to give you a chance to run it yourselves, "We, the People..." you all STILL scream bloody at us!! lol-- we are truly "damned if we do, and damned if we don't".

while we liberated Kuwait (see - we've fought for muslims many times). Many people rose up --- and my contrey abondoned them. After Kuwait, we left ((So friggin much for OCCUPATION and "INVADERS!!" and "STEALING THE OIL@!!))

We should have continued on to Baghdad that first time and took the s.o.b. out -- We then would already have been done and gone - and Iraq would be a whole different country with a muslim equivalent of "We...the people" running it.

Ummm - you really are unfamiliar with the west then, huh? Do you know that over ten years ago there was a display of "art" at a New York museum, the artist paid for by tax payer dollars!, where an up-side-down crucifix was in a jar of urine??>>??? Christians complained loudly, for sure, but the "left" and "liberals" said it was art and we should get over it. Don't look if we don't like it. Christians didn't riot in the streets and kill people, though. So, you see, this is a big difference between the two religions. What's funny is those same lefties today in American were too afraid to reprint the mohammed cartoons - lol. Because they were afraid. They're not afraid to mock Christians, though. Because the judeao-christian God is one of love. And really, ultimately -- He can fight his own battles. I don't need to get offended for him and do judgment in his staid - it's up to HIM and the lost individual, whom I'll pray for. See, my God is a bigger God.....He doesn't take offense at cartoons. Politically-Wrong, don't you realize that what I have said here in these post is WORSE than the cartoon fiasco and the pope's comment, and even Theo VanGogh's documentary, combined, BY FAR!!! ~ So, since you've told me how you feel about them, how do you feel about me??? Why is it that Muslims believe Christians are incorrect to venerate Jesus "too much" - for believing him the perfect man - God come down in the flesh to experience what we experience, so he can more better, fairly judge due to "walking in our shoes", but then they can themselves venerate a mere man, just as (or more) than God - and riot and kill over an alleged
"blashpemy" ((a friggin CARTOON!!))??
Don't you see the problem there, my friend??

No way - ridiculous. God can help himself

it's you who are offended

And the best way is rationally, logically and calmly debating the issues - as you and I are doing here.

ALL things should be open for discussion. Again, seeking and asking uncomfortable questions, doesn't bother God. Why should it bother you?? Let God deal with it and pray for the lost persons soul. Hate the sin - love the sinner. - It isn't our place to mete judgement.

Did God or mohammed tell you he was offended by those cartoons?? Or are you merely offended yourself because someone calls in to question the fondations of your belief??

If your beliefs are truly solid and "true" - you have no need to be offended and can laugh in a mockers face. However, if the foundation of your belief and religion is truly weak, spiritually, and groundless in theology, logic, and reason - well - then I suppose you would get offended and want to riot, kill, and shut up the person you disagree with.

Did you see it?? The gist of it was:: naked women in translucent scarfs - and all over their bodies were quranic scripture quoting how woman are to be beaten and kept down, they're opinion half that of a man - they are stupid, etc. - How they are OPPRESSED in muslim societies, due to quranic scripture and sharia law. Maybe you can't see his point, being a muslim man. The woman in his film were all ex-muslims. It was all real - and all to OPEN DIALOGUE -- OPEN EYES!!!--- OPEN MINDS!! To real truth

But you fail to see that and hate him -- because you've been told to hate him -- and you never even saw what he did. lolol- - still you were offended. It kind of scares me, brother, because what I have said here on this sight is FAR worse then all three events (cartoons, pope, VanGogh) combined....

and false "honor" is that NONE of them were mocking you!!

To help people to GROW UP past primitive misogynistic theocratically enforced b.s.

But you all feel you are sooooo right, that how dare anyone question it!!

Dude, respect is EARNED - not coerced and forced

He did it to stand up to the TYRANTS in ISLAM, hoping to help WOMAN of ISLAM

The woman in the film were ex-muslims who wanted real freedom - most beat and abused

((oh, and don't start about the west's stats on this - just look at the log in your own eye for this part....that's all we're saying))

Free up (TRULY free up)) the other 50% of your population,

along with separation of mosque and state

you will excell as well!!

Ummmm, because when you marry into them, you demand she convert to Islam?? lol--- COme on!! With all you've said so far, anyone reading this KNOWS that if you took a christian girl home to momma and poppa - it would be demanded she convert. - lol ;-) you're funny, bro! :-)

Check out those two site links in previous posts of mine for all the quranic scripture relating to how anything is permitted against an infidel. And it's all from ex-muslims. Seriously - I think you seem like a good guy. maybe they can help open your eyes. Or, if your faith is strong enough....maybe you can convince them they are wrong. They're all definitely more versed in the quran then I, since they were indoctrinated from birth in it - so you'll have a much harder time with them than me. Still, if you felt spiritually up to it, it could help open your eyes -- if you aren't afraid to see what they say, that is.....

It was in England - and granted, he was an English convert speaking it in English - and yes, I know, unfortunately too many madrassas are supported and run by the wahabbi sect.... I know this. Still - they comprise millions and are gaining in numbers (people always flock to evil it seems). Would you like to join me in countering their interpretations?? (please)

When someone commits a crime in the west and says God told them to do it, we take them to a psychiatric ward. When someone in the west bank or gaza says god told them to kill a bunch of people by blowing them up - they name streets after them

YES!!!! Just as we've marginalized the KKK and our own "extremists"!!! By standing up to them -- telling them EN MASSE that they are WRONG and FIGHTING against them!!! ((Didn't you say something earlier about "speaking truth in the face of a tyrant"?!?!)) My GOD man!!! It's (allegedly) only 1% of muslims that are extremists!!! You don't think the other BILLION people can't stand up and stop those 1%??!?? If you all WANTED to ---you could....It's as simple as that.

Well, those supporting and financing it are what, another 20 - 30% of muslims??

all you reasonable muslims aren't even outnumbered!! Stand up to them!

My brother, the propaganda IS that hate crimes are committed daily against ordinary muslims across the globe

the imams/mullahs from Finland inserted their own cartoons in the batch - that were TRULY offensive. they created them -- taqiyya -- to rile the masses

the worst one was a pic of mohammed with a turban that looked like a bomb-- that was all

That is how islam has spread since it's inception. By deception, taqiyya, and the sword. Riling the masses with propaganda and lies, and promises of virgins in paradise

Iraq - the worst atrociteis are between Shia and Sunni

You all condemn us for supporting hussein (like in their war with Iran) and condemn us for "supporting" all these terrible dictators -- but if we go in and take them out for you, to try to help you build your own autonomous nation of "We...the people" ...well - hey -- you condemn us still

Other than us infidels curling up and dying, is there anything that pleases the muslim masses??

so if you just keep quiet and don't speak Truth...they won't come after you.....ahem.

We supported the apparent "lesser of two evils" at the time - Like you even stated - the guy came off as a decent moderate!! Why is it OUR fault for him practicing taqiyya on us!!! And hey!! I myself have been for DECADES begging people to see what is going on over there and DO SOMETHING!!! But NO ONE in the world cares. America could come in and topple them and give you your country back -- but then you'd just scream at us again!!.....ahem
And where are all the muslim nations!! Turning a blind eye to you - as is the U.N. and the rest of the world....
I know you take this one personally -with good reason - and I hear you, I truly do... But another blunder we made was the CIA supporting the Ayahtolla in deposing the shah of Iran -- and now look what a bloody mess they turned in to! All that we have always done, is tried to support the lesser of two evil - as opposed to imperialistically running it for ourselves. You know what?? It's not OUR fault that people come from disfunctional and sick cultures, and they practice taqiyya on us so we can help them - and then turn to evil acts once they get in power. That's their fault and the culture that bread them

If someone insults you -- laugh in their face and toss a (truthful/honest) jibe back at them, and grow on in your life. If you laugh in the insulters face and belittle him as an ignorant child

Why the slow torture of stoning?? (other than that "the prophet did it") in this day and age, why not a quick bullet into the head,

actually, isn't it enough that the spouse that was cheated on divorces and casts her (or him) out, and there is a shunnning in the society, in the hopes that the person repents and grows up?? Christianity gives them that chance to repent (which we all are capable of) -- you all just kill them.....

You, my brother, would never have given her that chance.

What's funny/sad is you don't see the correlation in your statement of bastard children (HUMAN BEINGS!! ~ WHo are INNOCENT!! It wasn't THEIR fault their parent chose to "sin"! Why do you "outcast" the human child, for their fathers/mothers sin

So it's YOUR "outcast" mentality that causes them to HAVE to commit crimes to LIVE......Sad.

PLUS, I would have to say your numbers are surely inflated - Crimes are committed by people of all walks of life, all castes, all levels in society -- because it is individuals who make choices to commit a crime or not.

Of course not! There's the Hadiths to learn, too! ;-) ~ Sorry - couldn't resist. :-)

then refer back to my previous post listing the accomplishments of Islam vs. Judaism, as well as the fact that Mexico (Mexico!) translates more books in a year than the entire muslim world combined??? Proof is in the pudding..... Or, you can tell a man by his fruits

..... How about if we build a better world for ALL instead?? Like the Jews have been doing

Umm-- as you can read -- it was a lot more than a few pirate renegades...they were actually an extension of the Ottoman empire, my friend. It went on for hundreds of years and was pretty much sanctioned and part of the muslims world towards the west....

MY point was that in a muslim society, someone of a different religion COULDN"T BE ANYTHING!! So which society offers more to ALL people??? The west, of course

But they DON'T have representation in office!! That's the point!

allow us the same mode of thought as yourself!! lolol ;-)

The TRUTH remains: Here, a muslim was elected to public office -- in a Muslim nation, the reverse of that could NEVER be.

Soooo cool to hear. Then there is some hope for Sudan. <<unless this is taqiyya>> So, what's up with Darfur and the christian and black muslim genocide going on???

Though it is kind of telling that, while it might be allowed on a "personel" one-on-one level (which is all Christ needs) they cannot broadcast their beliefs equally in the public forum....very telling. I believe if the opposite were true, (say, if in America muslims were not allowed the public forum they ARE afforded) there would be muslims screaming bigotry, racism and calling for Jihad

On mohammed breaking the treaty, that would be the treaty he had with the Jews in the region. I forget the name, but I think it started with a Q. ((I could look it up, but I'm tired, and I'm sure you remember to which I am refering to now) Certainly, the islamic histroy is that the Jews broke the treaty and plotted to kill mohamed, but the western history is that it was mohamed who concocted that story of treason, and purposely broke the treaty once he built up his arms

since mo was JUST a man

Hey, Bro ~ I am SOoooo sorry those sites (and I'm sure many more) are blocked from you. There is Soooo much out there in the world you are missing!! God, I wish you lived in America where you could be truly free!!
I'm totally serious there....I think you would be an asset to what America is about.....

Yeah, I'd be pretty pissed at them, too, if they killed you. You seem a very good Man. Serious! :-) Which is why people like me are generally willing to come over and help remove the governments you so dislike -- if you'd let us.... But then agian, the betrayal of Iraqi's in the first gulf war makes that a hollow hope -- to my shame.....Still, I have a dream

Hey, Politically-Wrong, ((wish I could call you, in respect/friendship by your real name)) This has been a very neat dialogue.

((and lastly......gaa..., my brother/friend....many of the things I've stated may have been a bit melodramatic and "offensive" - on the personal level, I apologize if they bothered you, though I hope they got you thinking.....but I still do stand by my statements! ~ I just hope you take them in stride and openings for the real dialogue you and I have been having... Maybe that can help other people who disagree to dialgoue in reason and decency. And I do hope you take it to heart <and think about it> that what I have said here, between you and I, HAS been worse than the cartoons, the pope's statement, and VanGogh's movie, combined. You and I have still talked rationally -- does that not tell you something?? Mazel Tov....)))