14
   

Faith after Nietzsche

 
 
amist
 
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 05:40 pm
To those of you who are religious and have read a significant amount of Nietzsche. How do you respond to Nietzsche's critiques of religion?
 
talk72000
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 06:26 pm
@amist,
This is the guy who espoused the idea of the Aryan super race so I wouldn't put too much faith in him.
mister kitten
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 06:38 pm
@talk72000,
Do you have any proof for that claim?

I'm pretty sure that was Hitler and not Nietzsche.
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 06:47 pm
@mister kitten,
The Übermensch (German) (English Overman or Superman) is a concept in the philosophy of German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche--he posited the Übermensch as a goal for humanity to set for itself in his 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra (German: Also Sprach Zarathustra).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 06:56 pm
@talk72000,
Come on Talk72000! That is an awful stretch.

There is no connection between Nietzsche´s Ubermensch and the Nazi´s Aryans (other then the lame attempt by the Nazi´s themselves to make one). In fact, Nietzsche opposed anti-Semitism.

You are jumping to Godwin´s law awfully quickly, don´t you think?
talk72000
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:20 pm
@ebrown p,
Übermensch in English

The first translation of Thus Spoke Zarathustra into English, was by Alexander Tille, published in 1896. Tille translated Übermensch as Beyond-Man. In his translation published in 1909, Thomas Common rendered Übermensch as "Superman"; Common was anticipated in this by George Bernard Shaw, who did the same in his 1903 stage play Man and Superman. Walter Kaufmann lambasted this translation in the 1950s for failing to capture the nuance of the German über and for promoting an eventual puerile identification with the comic-book character Superman. His preference was to translate Übermensch as "overman." Scholars continue to employ both terms, some simply opting to reproduce the German word.

The German prefix über can have connotations of superiority, transcendence, excessiveness, or intensity, depending on the words to which it is prepended.[1] Mensch refers to a member of the human species, rather than to a man specifically. The adjective übermenschlich[2] means superhuman, in the sense of beyond human strength or out of proportion to humanity.
[edit] This-worldliness

Nietzsche introduces the concept of the Übermensch in contrast to the other-worldliness of Christianity: Zarathustra proclaims the Übermensch to be the meaning of the earth and admonishes his audience to ignore those who promise other-worldly hopes in order to draw them away from the earth.[3][4] The turn away from the earth is prompted, he says, by a dissatisfaction with life, a dissatisfaction that causes one to create another world in which those who made one unhappy in this life are tormented. The Übermensch is not driven into other worlds away from this one.

The Christian escape from this world also required the invention of an eternal soul which would be separate from the body and survive the body's death. Part of other-worldliness, then, was the abnegation and mortification of the body, or asceticism. Zarathustra further links the Übermensch to the body and to interpreting the soul as simply an aspect of the body.

As the drama of Thus Spoke Zarathustra progresses, the turn to metaphysics in philosophy and Platonism in general come to light as manifestations of other-worldliness, as well. Truth and nature are inventions by means of which men escape from this world. The Übermensch is also free from these failings.

Some commentators associate the Übermensch with a program of eugenics.[6] This is most pronounced when considered in the aspect of a goal that humanity sets for itself. The reduction of all psychology to physiology implies, to some, that human beings can be bred for cultural traits. This interpretation of Nietzsche's doctrine focuses more on the future of humanity than on a single cataclysmic individual. There is no consensus regarding how this aspect of the Übermensch relates to the creation of new values, and many would deny vehemently that Nietzsche would countenance a eugenics program at all.

Although Nietzsche might be against anti-Semitism the idea that there is a super race is just as fallacious and a myth.
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:21 pm
@talk72000,
You're correct, however that is about moral values and evolution and is applied to all humanity, not just Aryans. Basically, he does have the concept of Superman, you just have no idea what it entails and made a bullshit comment about it being racist.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:24 pm
@Sentience,
I posted comments by others and the only comments were that it was awful not RACIST.
Sentience
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:27 pm
@talk72000,
'Aryan Super Race' the implication that Aryan's are above other races, is racist by the definition of racism. You're tripping from the start, first you say he wanted Aryan super race, then he wanted Super Race and that is a fallacy, then that he was awful not racist, and you're 'opinions' are copy and pastes from Wikipedia.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:33 pm
@Sentience,
Read carefulkly what I wrote and not your impression.
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:37 pm
@talk72000,
Quote:
This is the guy who espoused the idea of the Aryan super race so I wouldn't put too much faith in him.


I don't see how I can read this any more carefully. You said he was in favor of an Aryan super race.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:46 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
There is no connection between Nietzsche´s Ubermensch and the Nazi´s Aryans (other then the lame attempt by the Nazi´s themselves to make one). In fact, Nietzsche opposed anti-Semitism.


You really don't think so? According to Wikipedia
Quote:
1932, Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche received a rose bouquet from Hitler during a German premier of Mussolini's 100 Days; in 1934 Hitler and Alfred Rosenberg visited her again, presenting her with a wreath for Nietzsche's grave with the words "To A Great Fighter"; in the same year the Führer posed for a photo gazing into the eyes of a white marble bust of Nietzsche, and was presented by Elisabeth with Nietzsche's favorite walking stick.[26] There can be no doubt that Italian and German fascist regimes were eager to lay claim to Nietzsche's ideas, and to position themselves as inspired by them. In Heinrich Hoffmann's best-selling Hitler as Nobody Knows Him (which sold nearly a half-million copies by 1938) the caption of the photo of Hitler with the bust of Nietzsche read, "The Führer before the bust of the German philosopher whose ideas have fertilized two great popular movements: the National Socialist of Germany and the Fascist of Italy."
Source

I don't know why Neitszche's philosophy is depicted as benign. I think many of his ideas were highly malignant. Of course this is outrageously non-PC in the current academy.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:51 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
There is no connection between Nietzsche´s Ubermensch and the Nazi´s Aryans (other then the lame attempt by the Nazi´s themselves to make one).


At least quote me in complete sentences.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 07:58 pm
@ebrown p,
regardless of whether the Nazis attempt to co-opt Neitszche's ideas for their movement was philosophically justified or not, it was only stopped by massive military force. And I don't see how there could not be a parallel between the Neitszchean Over-Man and Hitler's Master Race, whether N 'intended' those kinds of outcomes, or not.
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:02 pm
@jeeprs,
Of course their is a parallel, in that it is an ideology in which man can become a superior being, but while one is rooted in bigotry and fascism, the other is rooted in intellectualism and evolution. To say they are the same is folly. Regardless of whether or not Neitszche supported Nazism, you people have failed to address the actual question, which is a rebuttal to his arguments against religion, mainly Abrahamic religion.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:12 pm
@Sentience,
I don't think they are the same, or that one is a direct cause of the other. But the convergences are far from co-incidental. Nietszche in any case, while brilliant, was not free of his own kinds of bigotry. In any case, I am not going to debate it, I detest Neitszche so I should bow out of this argument.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:17 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
regardless of whether the Nazis attempt to co-opt Neitszche's ideas for their movement was philosophically justified or not, it was only stopped by massive military force. And I don't see how there could not be a parallel between the Neitszchean Over-Man and Hitler's Master Race, whether N 'intended' those kinds of outcomes, or not.


The Nazi's also co-opted the ideas Plato, Darwin and Jesus .... so what?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:31 pm
@amist,
Quote:
To those of you who are religious and have read a significant amount of Nietzsche. How do you respond to Nietzsche's critiques of religion?


There was absolutely nothing wrong with Nietzsche's logic; he was simply working with garbage data and assumptions. "Garbage in, Garbage out (GIGO) in computer speak.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:34 pm
I mean, for starters, Nietzsche was heavily influenced by Chuck Darwin's bullshit; the best logic in the world can't make gold out of bullshit.
Sentience
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2010 08:46 pm
@gungasnake,
This is so entirely ignorant I cannot even begin. Whether or not you believe in Evolution proper, and even if you don't I usually take that as faith as I've yet to see someone use proper logic to defeat it, micro-evolution has been observed, and thus Charles Darwin cannot in any way be 'complete' bullshit. While you may not believe we evolved from apes, you can notice genetic differences between individuals and easily use logic to state that one day we will become something physically different from what we are now, no matter how little the difference is.
0 Replies
 
 

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