Wimbledon and Bias

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

You clearly weren't watching the Williams sisters early on. They caught a lot of grief for no rational reason other than not having come up in the clubby atmosphere of American junior tennis.

I was watching them early on and I thought they got the opposite. Both Tennis magazine and Sports Illustrated wrote about Venus in 1991 when she was 11. The NY Times called her "the most unorthodox tennis prodigy her sport has ever seen" in 1994, the year she went pro. That doesn't mean that they didn't have detractors. Hingis accused them of playing the race card to get endorsements avoid criticism (as they prematurely snuffed out her star) and Navratilova made some comment to the effect that people were unwilling to criticize them because of race. But still, I think they got more press and more positive press early on than just about any other tennis player I can remember.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

So I take the other side of the Oprah interview you posted. I think it is great than they are able to completely ignore the non-serious tennis press out there. When the press goes on about the size of Serena's butt, she just laughs as them - as she should. When they ask her about how her serve is doing, she gives them a reasonable response. Note that people love Roddick for this very trait. Ask him a stupid question and he will throw off some quip that has everyone except the idiot asking in stitches.

I agree that Venus is "perceptually impaired" about her court fashion, but as long as she is striking the ball cleanly, who cares? She wears white at Wimbledon just like everyone else. She is clearly not doing it to insult the tennis establishment. She's stated her interest in fashion design many times. I don't see it, but I don't see much in the runway shows either.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

She is clearly not doing it to insult the tennis establishment

this is not clear to me, Maybe she does not intend to insult but does not give a **** about fitting in, but either way they show no interest in conforming to norms. It is not just about what they wear, how they interact (or don't interact) with the other players, and about when they play, it is also about when they talk to the press as evidenced by the fine they just got for blowing off the press obligations and the Williams stating that it should be no big deal because they often blow off the press obligations. Their bad girl behaviour does impact the bread and butter of the tour, it does matter to those who care about the success of tennis.

3 Replies

I have not been watching tennis. I do know broadcast commentators can show bias, whether intentional or not.

2 Replies

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

I have not been watching tennis. I do know broadcast commentators can show bias, whether intentional or not.

it is not too surprising to me that members of the press would take a disliking to players who habitually blow off the press. The behavior of the Williams sisters does have the potential to impact them, not that they care because they will just blame racism or classism or some other ism for why they get treated badly.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Maybe she does not intend to insult but does not give a **** about fitting in, but either way they show no interest in conforming to norms. It is not just about what they wear, how they interact (or don't interact) with the other players, and about when they play, it is also about when they talk to the press as evidenced by the fine they just got for blowing off the press obligations and the Williams stating that it should be no big deal because they often blow off the press obligations. Their bad girl behaviour does impact the bread and butter of the tour, it does matter to those who care about the success of tennis.

Tennis is an individual sport. I doubt any tennis player wants to fit in; they want to stand out. Nadal wears his clam diggers, Agassi had his flowing hair, etc. The difference is that instead of Nike or Adidas deciding what fashion statement the player is going to make, the Williams sisters decide that for themselves. I agree with you that the Williams sisters are obnoxious in blowing off their press obligations and frankly it comes off as poor sportsmanship, but I disagree that their behavior adverse impacts the tour. Serena Williams is THE BIG DRAW on the women's tennis circuit. Not like Tiger is to golf (by an order of magnitude), but still the biggest draw and her fire and competitiveness are the reasons. Clisters is the role model for fitting in, doing what she's told, saying only nice things, the ultimate nice girl. BORING! Serena is doing a lot more for women's tennis than Clisters. Even Venus's unusual outfits get tennis more exposure by attracting attention outside the typical tennis crowd. I would not characterize the Williams as "bad girls", but even if they occasionally stir a little controversy, they are in no way bad for tennis and the tour's bottom line, with the possible exception of not playing Indian Wells (see earlier posts). I would also say their few transgressions are small compared to other things that happen on the tour. The illegal coaching of Henin and Sharapova comes to mind as things that actually harm the integrity of the game and hurt tennis.

2 Replies

@engineer,

Note that the other big draw on the women's tour is Sharapova who has been out for a while. This is probably the primary reason the announcers seemed to be favoring her. Having Sharapova competitive and healthy means more Sharapova-Williams matches in the future and that is always a plus.

0 Replies

@engineer,

Quote:

Serena Williams is THE BIG DRAW on the women's tennis circuit

I keep hearing that women's tennis is in a funk, with ratings, purses and attendance all down. Might be wrong about that as I have not documented the claims, but if the WTA is not doing so well then it is hard to argue how great the Williams sisters "unconventional" behaviour is for the tour. They certainly have not lifted the sport like Tiger did for golf, and given their story and their skin color they very much had the potential to do that.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Here's another take (or a similar take) from the SI tennis writer. (Follow the link to see Venus's French Open outfit)

Jon Wertheim (SI Writer) wrote:

I live in Berkeley. I'm liberal ... but even I thought Venus' outfit was inappropriate. What is the difference between lingerie and "outer" clothing designed to look like lingerie? (And please don't tell me it's the "illusion.")
--Caryn, Berkeley, Calif.

• Note to Venus: When a Berkeley liberal is scandalized by your attire, it's serious business.

But for the record, I rather like Venus' outfit. And I urge you to consider how modest she is in her day-to-day life. This is hardly an attention-hungry celebrity. Plus, a) at least it wasn't plaid and b) it got tennis in the public discourse. When else has Jay Leno made a tennis joke -- the moon of Venus was seen in France, ba-ba-boom -- on the first day of a major?

One of you writes: "I'll be interested to see what she cooks up for Wimbledon. I'm guessing it will be something more classic, like she usually wears there. And to use a phrase stolen from, er, I mean "inspired by" John McEnroe, I'm going to "go out on a twig" and say she won't wear the nude shorts in London. Can you imagine the feeding frenzy the British 'Bloids would have with them?"

The "plaid" comment is a shot at Nadal's shorts for those who don't follow tennis fashion.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I disagree. Venus joined the tour in 1994 and I think Serena was 1996. The next decade was one the best ever for the women's tour as the "Big Babe Brigade" revolutionized women's tennis. There are two problems now. The first is that no one else has come along from the US to form the next generation. Without the sisters, we'd have no women in the top 20 and only Roddick among the men. They are single handedly keeping the casual tennis fan in the US active. Second, Serena has no rival. Like many individual sports, tennis thrives on rivalry and right now, Serena has no peer. Sharapova is that natural rival, but she's not living up to the task. Henin and Clisters retired and then returned and everyone is hoping they will get back into form, but they aren't there yet. Most of the Russians are head cases who can't string together strong performances at back to back tournaments, much less back to back years. Federer did the same on the men's tour for a while, but then came Nadal and men's tennis has never been more exciting. I hope Serena's Nadal is out there somewhere, but Serena is holding up her end of the challenge.

2 Replies

@engineer,

the appeal of womens tennis goes far beyond the game of tennis, it is in big part about sex appeal. I think this is what Venus was poking fun at, or rebelling against, with her corset costume at the French Open. The girls are well aware of this, they are not stupid, and they have to know that their "snotty American" routine is not good for the tour because their unattractive personalities take away focus from how attractive they are physically. They just don't care.

I think that the WTA people expect the girls to suck it up for the good of the tour, and they have refused. I dont dispute that I can relate to how the sisters act, and I might do it myself if I were them, but what I cant stomach is them or their apologists blaming an ism for how they are treated. They are getting treated as their behaviour indicates that they should be treated, if they dont like it they should change their behaviour. But for Gods sake, stop whining about it...

1 Reply

@engineer,

Serena reminds of Martina Navratilova who was there forever.

0 Replies

@engineer,

That shot is outmoded and is basically a weakness in Federer's game; he wins in spite of it and not on account of it. It amounts to the same thing as pushing the ball or lifting a stone instead of using a lever.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

the appeal of womens tennis goes far beyond the game of tennis, it is in big part about sex appeal. I think this is what Venus was poking fun at, or rebelling against, with her corset costume at the French Open. The girls are well aware of this, they are not stupid, and they have to know that their "snotty American" routine is not good for the tour because their unattractive personalities take away focus from how attractive they are physically. They just don't care.

Nor should they. Sure, sex sells and the WTA peddles sex with the best of them, but why is this OK? These are world class athletes! For those players who really can't deliver, the only way to get attention is to strip down, but the top end has always refused to do this. Davenport, Clisters, Henin, Capriati, Hingis, Graf etc have never stooped to doing shoots in Maxim. I think people see Sharapova's picture pasted on everything in sight and get a distorted sense of women's tennis in general. I agree Venus was fishing for attention with her outfit, but she sees herself as a fashion designer. She's been designing her own outfits for years and now she's getting a little strange, but to say this is some type of statement about sex and the WTA is a long stretch. To your other point, no one who follows tennis sees the Williams as "snotty Americans". They are generally free of controversy. That doesn't mean they love everyone or everyone loves them, but they generally don't get into pissing matches with other players, don't bad mouth the tournament, don't make excuses, etc. I'd rather have Serena representing the US than McEnroe or Connors any day.

hawkeye10 wrote:

I think that the WTA people expect the girls to suck it up for the good of the tour, and they have refused. I dont dispute that I can relate to how the sisters act, and I might do it myself if I were them, but what I cant stomach is them or their apologists blaming an ism for how they are treated. They are getting treated as their behaviour indicates that they should be treated, if they dont like it they should change their behaviour. But for Gods sake, stop whining about it...

What are they supposed to suck up? What aren't they sucking up? Where are they whining? Serena didn't start this thread complaining. If you ask her directly "do you see discrimination on the tour", she might say yes on occasion, but she never brings it up and she doesn't fan the flames if someone else does. As to them being treated as their behavior dictates, I agree that is true. They are fairly universally respected and often liked in the tennis world. When they step out of line as at the US Open last year, they are criticized. They get exactly the attention they merit compared to the early days when their father continuously stirred the pot with questionable statements and they were in the center of a media circus not of their making. But just to be clear, they should receive significant attention in the tennis world. They are sisters who hold the top two positions in the world. They don't even play that much and they accumulate enough points to hold those spots. Serena especially has redefined what fitness and power can be in women's tennis, much as Navratilova did in the 80's. In terms of tennis phenoms, I would take Serena over Graf who was far more standoffish and uni-dimensional. Graf had no friends on the tour because she considered it her job to beat them all and didn't want personal feelings to interfere. All she did was come to tournaments, beat the snot out of everyone and leave. It seems you are holding the Williams sisters to a standard that no one has ever been held to before. From what I read, the WTA loves the Williams (except for Indian Wells where they might as well give up.)

2 Replies

@engineer,

I love how you act like I am full of ****, yet if you follow tennis you know as well as I do that what I am saying is damn near the majority opinion on the sisters, if not actually the majority opinion.....

Quote:

Ever since he said after that first Wimbledon win that Venus and Serena wouldn't "walk the line", that they wouldn't do what America wanted, they have confronted the establishment. They have developed a tetchy relationship with the media and, by extension, the public. At this year's French Open, Venus played in lacy lingerie and a pair of see-through undies. Serena, meanwhile, is serving a two-year probationary period after her foul-mouthed threat to a line judge in last season's US Open. "I swear to God, I'll f***ing take the ball and shove it down your f***ing throat, you hear that?" said the Jehovah's Witness, who will face a lengthy ban from grand slam competition should she re-offend.

Not that she sounds in the least repentant. Serena has described her £100,000 fine as a joke, ridiculed the concept of probation and suggested that, if the feedback she has been getting is any guide, the game should be grateful for her antics. New fans are turning to the sport, and it's all because of her. "They say that after I did that, they now watch tennis, and I'm like, 'Cool'."

The Williamses divide opinion. They attract newcomers and alienate traditionalists. They have distanced themselves even from their admirers, especially after the gangland killing of their sister, Yetunde, seven years ago. Their family is that party to which no one else is invited. By setting themselves apart, they have not enjoyed the popularity of their black predecessors, Arthur Ashe and Zina Garrison.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/sos-sports-columnists/Paul-Forsyth-The-Williams-sisters.6373021.jp

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

Nor should they. Sure, sex sells and the WTA peddles sex with the best of them, but why is this OK?

It is a big part of what supplies those huge paychecks they collect.

Quote:

Wimbledon girls are 'just there to sell sex', says BBC pundit Michael Stich
By Mark Ryan and James Milbank
Last updated at 9:26 AM on 21st June 2009

As a former Wimbledon champion, Michael Stich might be expected to have an expert appreciation for the skill and dedication required to play tennis at its highest level.
But on the eve of this year’s tournament, the BBC Radio 5 Live commentator has caused outrage among the sport’s female stars by claiming their role is as much about ‘selling sex’ on court as it is about their sporting prowess.
.
.
.
However, not everyone took offence.

Two-time Wimbledon singles winner Serena Williams admitted: ‘Sex sells! It’s great for Angelina Jolie and it’s true across the board.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194452/Wimbledon-girls-just-sell-sex-says-BBC-pundit-Michael-Stich.html#ixzz0sfbqGICY

The girls know darn well that their paychecks depend in part on playing along, doing sexy. Sometimes they just can't help themselves from showing their ugly sides, thanks to dear old dad I am sure.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I love how you act like I am full of ****, yet if you follow tennis you know as well as I do that what I am saying is damn near the majority opinion on the sisters, if not actually the majority opinion.....

I don't think you are full of ****. I do disagree that the article you quoted represents the majority tennis opinion. The article you quoted took a 15 year career and found a couple of events to write a story about, events that Serena has been rounded and consistently condemned for. You could do the same about Sampras if you wanted to, find one or two referee arguments, point out his pointed comments about Rafter, etc. The article says "they attract newcomers and alienate traditionalists." I can find plenty of newcomers, but I've never met someone who stopped following tennis because of the Williams sisters. They might not like them, they might cheer against them with enthusiasm, but they watch more than ever.

I also argue that your view of the Williams sisters' behavior is based on seeing them in a vacuum. If you compare them to their contemporaries you see that they are hardly controversial. All of these players are intense competitors at the very top of an international game. There is no one out there who does not occasionally step on toes. The Williams sisters are better than average. Sure, they are a bit standoffish, but they also don't court controversy and generally keep to themselves. You will not find Venus calling a homosexual player "half a man" as Hingis did. You will not see Serena intentionally running into her opponent as [url="They attract newcomers and alienate traditionalists."]Spirlea did to Venus[/url]. They don't complain about the draw, complain about who gets center court, cheat by getting coaching during matches, take long delays during the match, etc. When compared to other tennis players on both tours, the Williams aren't perfect, but they are far from problem children. The article you quoted is a good example of typical superficial tennis coverage. He's a general sports columnist and has no special insight into tennis but is asked to step up before Wimbledon. Look up regular tennis reporters to get a more nuanced view of the Williams sisters. If you didn't like my earlier link to SI's Jon Wertheim, try Peter Bodo at ESPN.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Quote:

but they also don't court controversy and generally keep to themselves.

that rubs both ways of course, their not socializing in tennis circles keeps them out of the tennis drama scene, but it also keeps them generally unliked.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
She is clearly not doing it to insult the tennis establishment
this is not clear to me, Maybe she does not intend to insult but does not give a **** about fitting in, but either way they show no interest in conforming to norms. It is not just about what they wear, how they interact (or don't interact) with the other players, and about when they play, it is also about when they talk to the press as evidenced by the fine they just got for blowing off the press obligations and the Williams stating that it should be no big deal because they often blow off the press obligations. Their bad girl behaviour does impact the bread and butter of the tour, it does matter to those who care about the success of tennis.

Just so I'm clear on this - you think that the Williams sisters are bad for tennis on a whole?

1 Reply

@snood,

Quote:

Just so I'm clear on this - you think that the Williams sisters are bad for tennis on a whole?

No, I think that they could help the WTA be successful more than they do. I have said that they don't care about WTA success but I have come accross comments from them that indicate that they think that they are great for the WTA, that those who are critical of the sisters behaviour (of whom there are many) for not being part of the club are full of it. The sisters say that they come to play tennis not to socialize, and it is also now clear to me that they think that they have some obligation to the tour, only they will make the contribution that they want to make, not the one that is expected from them.

1 Reply

Wimbledon and Bias

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know