engineer
 
  5  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 05:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
I don't disagree that the Serena is often her own worst enemy (although Venus is much better and lumping them together is a serious error), but they are typical in that regard, especially on the Women's tour. There is plenty of backbiting and nasty comments to go around and Serena is no worse than a dozen others. As for her "outsider" status, tennis is a very international game and there is not a typical tennis player out there. Capriati was probably the last American to come out of the country club set (just OD'd recently). Of course the Williams sisters did not attend the Bollettieri tennis factory, but that is often a plus in many people's eyes. Her obnoxious tennis dad is also par for the course. Also "what is good for the tour" is often not good for the players. The number of injuries on both tours is amazing and many commentators site the extreme number of tournaments that the tours promote and the lack of downtime as one of the primary causes. I consider it a strength that the Williams sisters are willing to say no to the tours and while Venus has had her injuries, Serena is rare in that she has suffered very little in the way of physical injury or mental burnout. The Williams are no more bitchy than the average tour player (which is not saying they are as polite as you and me Wink), but Serena definitely carries around a certain swagger, swagger that she's earned by kicking so many butts for so many years.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 06:44 pm
@engineer,
so what is your point, that the animostity towards the sisters does not exit? is not earned? Is Racial?

another reason they are not liked is that a few years back they got heavily involved with fashion...this did not go down well because it made them look like diva's, and because it was taken as a lack of commitment to the tour....the financial success of the tour. They were expected to help female tennis the way Tiger helped golf, but these girls were never interested.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 08:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

so what is your point, that the animostity towards the sisters does not exit? is not earned? Is Racial?

another reason they are not liked is that a few years back they got heavily involved with fashion...this did not go down well because it made them look like diva's, and because it was taken as a lack of commitment to the tour....the financial success of the tour. They were expected to help female tennis the way Tiger helped golf, but these girls were never interested.


Like I said earlier in reply to womeone else - it's really all a matter of perspective. Myself, I sort of empathize with the Williams sisters, and I think I can see things from their perspective in some ways. Like for instance, some say they are rude and insular - I don't see them doing anything but looking out for themselves in a sport that was never welcoming to them. They could have reacted to the cold shoulder the other players gave them by trying twice as hard to be friendly and accepted. They didn't - they did what they trained to do - became two of the best ever in women's tennis, and to hell with being accepted or acceptable. Serena had one outburst I would categorize as ugly. Other than that, the attempts to saddle them with some "anti" label is ridiculous, IMO.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:03 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

so what is your point, that the animostity towards the sisters does not exit? is not earned? Is Racial?

My point is that there is animosity towards Serena (but very little towards Venus), but it is not because she is not from the country club set, an ass or a diva. There are plenty of others out there with far better claims to those titles. I don't think it is due to her race either. While that may be a factor with a very small subset of fans, I don't see it in the press or in general tennis conversations (of which I have many). I think there are two arguments people bring up when talking about Serena. First, she is incredibly dominate and people would like to see some fresh faces. Second, she is not especially sportmanlike in her behavior. You've pointed out skipping press conferences after losing, I've mentioned slams and backhanded compliments towards opponents. But the other part of this is that the personality of champions is always dissected in tennis. Sampras and Graf were "too robotic". Agassi "too flamboyant", etc.

hawkeye10 wrote:
another reason they are not liked is that a few years back they got heavily involved with fashion...this did not go down well because it made them look like diva's, and because it was taken as a lack of commitment to the tour....the financial success of the tour. They were expected to help female tennis the way Tiger helped golf, but these girls were never interested.

Of all the women tennis players, the Williams sisters are the least diva like. You want diva, let's go back to where the thread started with Sharapova. You want junior divas, look at the rest of the Russians. The Williams sisters don't pose for men's magazines, don't do underwear commercials, etc. If anything, they act like the men's players. They talk about tennis, taking it to the opponents, dictating the course of the game, etc. And they are appreciated for this. It is a plus, not a negative. Yes, they have outside activities, but once again the tennis press generally finds this to be a positive for both making them well rounded and for relieving the continuous mental stress of the tour. As for helping Women's tennis, that is clearly off track. Women's tennis was thriving long before the Williams sisters came along. What people hoped they would do was increase minority participation and they have been amazing in that respect. We've seen a good increase in black participation in our local junior programs and it is clear that they Williams sisters have shown that you can start in a community program like those here and succeed. The Williams are supporters of local community tennis programs and if they aren't as active as say Davenport, they are far from the bottom.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:23 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Like I said earlier in reply to womeone else - it's really all a matter of perspective. Myself, I sort of empathize with the Williams sisters, and I think I can see things from their perspective in some ways. Like for instance, some say they are rude and insular - I don't see them doing anything but looking out for themselves in a sport that was never welcoming to them. They could have reacted to the cold shoulder the other players gave them by trying twice as hard to be friendly and accepted. They didn't - they did what they trained to do - became two of the best ever in women's tennis, and to hell with being accepted or acceptable. Serena had one outburst I would categorize as ugly. Other than that, the attempts to saddle them with some "anti" label is ridiculous, IMO.

I disagree that tennis was never welcoming to the Williams sisters. At sixteen and having never played in a junior tournment, Venus was hailed as the next great thing and hyped by a tennis community who just loved her story. "Kid learned tennis from Dad on community courts and rises up to become the next great American champion!" And then Serena comes and it's "sisters battle for the Grand Slam titles." I can make a good case that they were given preferential treatment compared to other up and comers just because the story was so good. A Williams-Williams match was a guaranteed sell-out and promoters loved it.

Still, there were some incidents that would support your position. The infamous Indian Wells incident is one case in point, but I'd argue that Mauresmo got much more heat because of her sexual orientation than the Williams got because of their race. I also agree with you that those who dislike their overall comments are those who hold women to a different standard than men. Serena Williams particularly is a fierce competitor, among the best ever on either tour. When she loses, she is pissed and she's not ready to compliment her opponent's fine play. You see this on the men's tour regularly (and the men are usually dissed for it by the press), but it is rare on the women's tour. To sports reporters or fans who only cover or watch the big tennis matches, it strikes a wrong note. To those that routinely follow the game, it's part of what makes a typical world champion athlete.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:41 am
For those with more interest in the Indian Wells Incident, here is a better link.
0 Replies
 
electronicmail
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:44 am
@engineer,
What you write is obvious except to the willfully obtuse. Example of one is the one who can write " to hell with being accepted or acceptable " and delude himself into thinking that he, and he alone, managed to spot this and the tennis audiences (too stupid to spot the same) are just acting out of "bias". There's sickening bias around here all right but it's not at Wimbledon.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:46 am
@engineer,
excellent post
electronicmail
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 07:56 am
@panzade,
Indian Wells is nothing when it comes to booing. The crowd at last year's US Open really went wild after this sportsmanlike sequence of events. Racism and bias is to blame for that one as well, I'm sure
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2009/09/13/1225772/380039-serena-us-open.jpg

Panzade, you got nothing better to do with your life than follow me around and zeroeing out my posts? Or invading threads like Edgar Blythe's on the universe with completely unrelated commentary? Do you ever ponder the futility of your actions?
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 08:08 am
@electronicmail,
Quote:
Racism and bias is to blame for that one as well, I'm sure

I don't think any one is saying that.
Engineer IMO is pointing out that McEnroe was an ass, but Serena is held to a different standard...maybe a gender bias rather than a racial bias.

Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 11:56 am
@panzade,

you can NOT be serious!!!




Wink
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 01:35 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
I disagree that tennis was never welcoming to the Williams sisters. At sixteen and having never played in a junior tournment, Venus was hailed as the next great thing and hyped by a tennis community who just loved her story
right on...the clubby tennis community was originally thrilled to welcome two poor black girls into the club, in much the way golf welcomed Tiger. They wanted to expand the appeal of the sport, and wanted to show that they were not the elitists that many thought that they were.

The Williams sisters rebuffed the tennis community at every turn, Tiger went the other way.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 08:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

The Williams sisters rebuffed the tennis community at every turn, Tiger went the other way.

I disagree with both of those comments. The Williams sisters did not fawn all over the people fawning over them, but neither did they "rebuff" them. They were children/young adults and they followed the lead of their media loving dad. Dad loved the hype and ate up all the attention even if he had to make some questionable claims to keep the spotlight on him. Tiger on the other hand was far from the saint you portray. He's known for his standoffish behavior with the media. He has very poor relationships with most of the other players on the tour, both because he beats them and because he came on the tour like he owned it. You'll find the Williams sisters doing charity work and promoting the game with the best of them. The press even loves all their outside activities since it gives them a bigger picture to write about compared to the one dimensional tennis players you usually see. (Read a Sampras interview if you are having trouble sleeping.) The tour is getting exactly what it wanted out of the Williams sisters - black role models. The pro golf tour is not getting the same from Tiger these days.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 08:45 pm
@snood,
Serena Williams owns the best serve there's ever been in Women's tennis and both Williams sisters hit a two-handed backhand hard and very naturally which is rare even in men's tennis. The normal choice for a backhand other than slicing it is that outmoded one-hander which you saw Federer lose the US Open last fall on account of, and the more efficient two-hander, but the two hander involves contortionism and even top male contenders like Andy Roddick often don't get the power they should from it.

Suppose there were to be a match right now between either of the Williams sisters and Federer, and the rules were that the ball was put in play with a machine, and nobody was allowed to hit a forehand. My money would be on whichever Williams sister was involved.

Other than that, Serena Williams is giving away something like 40 lbs in the same sense that an NFL running back would be giving away weight in a long distance race and still beating the other top women; that says she's MUCH better than they are, not just a little bit better.
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 08:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
You clearly weren't watching the Williams sisters early on. They caught a lot of grief for no rational reason other than not having come up in the clubby atmosphere of American junior tennis.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 09:30 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
u clearly weren't watching the Williams sisters early on. They caught a lot of grief for no rational reason other than not having come up in the clubby atmosphere of American junior tennis.


Riiight.....keep believing that if you need to...

from 2001
Quote:
Wearing a T-shirt bearing a caricature of himself, Williams managed once again to upstage action on the court Monday. The media section was nearly empty during Andre Agassi's victory, while outside the stadium reporters and cameras surrounded Williams as he spoke.

He said reporters erred by writing about unsubstantiated allegations of match-fixing, and he accused other players on the WTA Tour of jealousy toward his family.

"The girls that play professional tennis are always saying something about me," he said. "The only way those girls get their names in the paper -- they would have to say something about me. Otherwise, no one would write about them."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/news/2001/03/26/ericsson_open_ap/#null
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 09:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
I take it you're the first person in history who got to choose his parents...
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:06 pm
@gungasnake,
I think it is clear that the Willaims were from the start stand offish, and took pride in it
from 2003

Quote:
Venus: When anyone is critical of what I do, I'm just motivated by it. If someone says we're not good enough, then we just do better. If another tennis player says something negative, I say, "That girl will never beat me." We feed off the criticism.

Oprah: I love that. I've never once heard you make negative statements about other players.

Venus: And you won't. I don't have anything against anyone. When I walk onto the court, I'm there to play tennis and nothing else. Serena and I have no issues with anyone.

Serena: We're enjoying ourselves, and there's no time for anything else. You can't just be catty about everything.

Oprah: Do you even care what other people think of you?

Serena: I really don't—as long as my family knows who I am. And I know that a lie can't live forever. As Dr. Martin Luther King once said, "How long? Not long!" Most of the lies people tell about us are eventually washed away, so they don't bother me.

Oprah: Aren't you amazed at the untruths that people can write about you?

Serena: That's why we don't read the articles—I just look at the pictures. The negativity can really bring you down.

Venus: I avoid the hype. When I watch tennis on TV, I hit mute. I don't want to be bothered with the junk.

Oprah: Venus, was there ever a time when you cared what people thought?

Venus: No.

http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Oprahs-Interview-with-Venus-and-Serena-Williams/7
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
The other normal disposition of the Williams (when not standoffish) is the old thumb in the eye to the clubby tennis set:

Quote:
The French Open of 2010 has officially opened and the tennis stars are out of the gate and causing a ruckus and biggest hoopla goes to Venus Williams and her tennis outfit. Although the proposed winner of the French Open is Garros, Venus is getting the news. Venus Williams has always been a well respected and amazing tennis player.

However this year in the French Open of 2010, Venus Williams is stirring up the gossip with her corset-type mini outfit and nude undergarments. Comments are going crazy on this French Open outfit. The mini dress was also causing a lot of stir when it appeared that her breasts were going to slip out of her outfit.

Los Angeles Times had a little chat with the famous tennis player, Venus Williams and this is what she said her outfit is ““about illusion…a lot of my motif this year.” I was not exactly sure what Williams meant in regards to motif, but here is what Answers.com defined motif as “A recurrent thematic element in an artistic or literary work. A dominant theme or central idea.”

Okay so that is how she explains her naked undergarments under a corset-like dress! Now I get it! Venus Williams is not only athletic, but also expressing her artistic abilities to put on her clothes in the morning. Please! This outfit was totally inappropriate for the stuffy Tennis fans to watch and should only be warn in the bedroom or at a strip joint. What do you think about the French Open Outfit of Venus Williams?
http://sports.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978255943

PICS:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/26/venus-williams-outfit-ret_n_590382.html
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Jul, 2010 07:50 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

The normal choice for a backhand other than slicing it is that outmoded one-hander which you saw Federer lose the US Open last fall on account of, and the more efficient two-hander, but the two hander involves contortionism and even top male contenders like Andy Roddick often don't get the power they should from it.

A one handed backhand is a thing of beauty! Both Federer and Henin have ridden that shot to tremendous success. (If you ding Fed's backhand for the US Open, you have to give him credit for all those Slam wins as well.) It's a much harder shot to master, but gives you better reach and speed if you can pull it off.
 

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