34
   

Are Philosophers lost in the clouds?

 
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 10:30 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No meaning it is not a thing, its is between things, its a connector...
...or if you prefer, meaning is always that thing between things...
Meaning is the function who brings the "thing" from the undivided Whole...

The Be-ing-there still is...sheer, brute, compelling TO BE ! Wink


There are no "things" on one side and "meaning" on the other, so as to "connect" them: without meaning, there is nothing, that is, "no thing." Without meaning, a "thing" is not even a thing: "connecting" it with other things already requires its meaning. Meaning as a "connector" is just someone trying to turn it into an object among objects, out there in the world, so that someone can observe the world as if he/she were not a part of it. Such is the sad inheritance of classical science that plagues us even today: this maniac reductionism to objectivity.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 10:57 am
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No meaning it is not a thing, its is between things, its a connector...
...or if you prefer, meaning is always that thing between things...
Meaning is the function who brings the "thing" from the undivided Whole...

The Be-ing-there still is...sheer, brute, compelling TO BE ! Wink


There are no "things" on one side and "meaning" on the other, so as to "connect" them: without meaning, there is nothing, that is, "no thing." Without meaning, a "thing" is not even a thing: "connecting" it with other things already requires its meaning. Meaning as a "connector" is just someone trying to turn it into an object among objects, out there in the world, so that someone can observe the world as if he/she were not a part of it. Such is the sad inheritance of classical science that plagues us even today: this maniac reductionism to objectivity.


Did you read carefully the 3 sentence in that post ?
If you did you would n´t be replying like that...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 11:09 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No meaning it is not a thing, its is between things, its a connector...
...or if you prefer, meaning is always that thing between things...
Meaning is the function who brings the "thing" from the undivided Whole...

The Be-ing-there still is...sheer, brute, compelling TO BE ! Wink


There are no "things" on one side and "meaning" on the other, so as to "connect" them: without meaning, there is nothing, that is, "no thing." Without meaning, a "thing" is not even a thing: "connecting" it with other things already requires its meaning. Meaning as a "connector" is just someone trying to turn it into an object among objects, out there in the world, so that someone can observe the world as if he/she were not a part of it. Such is the sad inheritance of classical science that plagues us even today: this maniac reductionism to objectivity.


Did you read carefully the 3 sentence in that post ?
If you did you would n´t be replying like that...


Sure I read the third sentence. Was it supposed to say the opposite of the other two? Well, if doesn't: the undivided wholeness waiting for us to divide it with our meaningful scissors, like children destroying a book, is just the old dream of classical science. The world is not like that.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 11:18 am
@guigus,
whatever... Wink
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 11:40 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

whatever... Wink


Whatever that means.
0 Replies
 
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 06:45 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Remember that 80´s film about a coca-cola bottle which fell off from an airplane in Africa and changed an entire culture in a tribe ? The damn bottle was everything for them but a bottle...function brings the object and is that who gives it meaning !


The damn bottle just fell from the plane. Individual members of the tribe provided meaning. For some people Coca-cola bottles don't mean anything, its just a bottle. For others it reminds them of the good old days and for some others it reminds them of the first girl they kissed. Meaning comes from who you are not the damn bottle. Are you really trying to convince me that Coca-cola bottles have the ability to provide meaning? Really! The only person you can fool is the one who is fooling himself.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 06:54 pm
@Dasein,
Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 07:18 pm
@Dasein,
Dasein wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Remember that 80´s film about a coca-cola bottle which fell off from an airplane in Africa and changed an entire culture in a tribe ? The damn bottle was everything for them but a bottle...function brings the object and is that who gives it meaning !


The damn bottle just fell from the plane. Individual members of the tribe provided meaning. For some people Coca-cola bottles don't mean anything, its just a bottle. For others it reminds them of the good old days and for some others it reminds them of the first girl they kissed. Meaning comes from who you are not the damn bottle. Are you really trying to convince me that Coca-cola bottles have the ability to provide meaning? Really! The only person you can fool is the one who is fooling himself.


Oh damn...
...a bottle of cola can be a thousand things and all of them must correspond to the property´s it contains in order to any idea which can correlate to it to be conceivable given functions rely on it...
...for instance a bottle of cola can be... say :

a blunt weapon
it can be a jar
it can be a flute for music
a tool for smashing potatoes nuts or whatever say a hammer and so on...

all these examples and innumerable more make together the ultra object that a bottle of cola contains in its property´s and that can be thought of when in relation...and if it is true that we see in it what we want and what we need, its also true, that we only can see, what is there to be seen in the first place...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 06:24 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Remember that 80´s film about a coca-cola bottle which fell off from an airplane in Africa and changed an entire culture in a tribe ? The damn bottle was everything for them but a bottle...function brings the object and is that who gives it meaning !


The damn bottle just fell from the plane. Individual members of the tribe provided meaning. For some people Coca-cola bottles don't mean anything, its just a bottle. For others it reminds them of the good old days and for some others it reminds them of the first girl they kissed. Meaning comes from who you are not the damn bottle. Are you really trying to convince me that Coca-cola bottles have the ability to provide meaning? Really! The only person you can fool is the one who is fooling himself.


Oh damn...
...a bottle of cola can be a thousand things and all of them must correspond to the property´s it contains in order to any idea which can correlate to it to be conceivable given functions rely on it...
...for instance a bottle of cola can be... say :

a blunt weapon
it can be a jar
it can be a flute for music
a tool for smashing potatoes nuts or whatever say a hammer and so on...

all these examples and innumerable more make together the ultra object that a bottle of cola contains in its property´s and that can be thought of when in relation...and if it is true that we see in it what we want and what we need, its also true, that we only can see, what is there to be seen in the first place...


An object is not made of properties -- a bottle is not made of its transparency: it is made of glass, which is not a property, but a material constituent. However, the glass must have a determinate shape so as to be a bottle: the only way for you to decompose a thing in its constitutive elements is either by means of abstraction or by destroying it, neither of which is necessary for anyone to know a bottle of Coke is a bottle of Coke.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 06:47 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Remember that 80´s film about a coca-cola bottle which fell off from an airplane in Africa and changed an entire culture in a tribe ? The damn bottle was everything for them but a bottle...function brings the object and is that who gives it meaning !


The damn bottle just fell from the plane. Individual members of the tribe provided meaning. For some people Coca-cola bottles don't mean anything, its just a bottle. For others it reminds them of the good old days and for some others it reminds them of the first girl they kissed. Meaning comes from who you are not the damn bottle. Are you really trying to convince me that Coca-cola bottles have the ability to provide meaning? Really! The only person you can fool is the one who is fooling himself.


Oh damn...
...a bottle of cola can be a thousand things and all of them must correspond to the property´s it contains in order to any idea which can correlate to it to be conceivable given functions rely on it...
...for instance a bottle of cola can be... say :

a blunt weapon
it can be a jar
it can be a flute for music
a tool for smashing potatoes nuts or whatever say a hammer and so on...

all these examples and innumerable more make together the ultra object that a bottle of cola contains in its property´s and that can be thought of when in relation...and if it is true that we see in it what we want and what we need, its also true, that we only can see, what is there to be seen in the first place...


What you call the properties of an object are all abstractions: its transparency, its characteristic shape, and so on. They can be separated from each other or from the object only by means of abstraction, and each one of these abstractions already has its meaning, which it also cannot explain. You are confusing these abstractions with a scientific explanation regarding how the brain assembles them in an object. However this happens, meaning is its result rather then its guiding plan, and this result is precisely the same as the object as a whole. You may object that this would turn an object into different objects according to its particular meaning to different persons, which can be an objection only if you keep confusing the abstract properties of that object with its meaning or, which is the same, with that object itself. What is common to my bottle of Coke and yours is not the whole bottle, but rather its transparency, its characteristic shape, and so on. What all bottles of Coke have in common, regardless for whom, are these abstract properties, and hardly the whole bottle, which is its meaning, and so tends to be unique for each one of us.
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 09:30 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Remember that 80´s film about a coca-cola bottle which fell off from an airplane in Africa and changed an entire culture in a tribe ? The damn bottle was everything for them but a bottle...function brings the object and is that who gives it meaning !


The damn bottle just fell from the plane. Individual members of the tribe provided meaning. For some people Coca-cola bottles don't mean anything, its just a bottle. For others it reminds them of the good old days and for some others it reminds them of the first girl they kissed. Meaning comes from who you are not the damn bottle. Are you really trying to convince me that Coca-cola bottles have the ability to provide meaning? Really! The only person you can fool is the one who is fooling himself.


Oh damn...
...a bottle of cola can be a thousand things and all of them must correspond to the property´s it contains in order to any idea which can correlate to it to be conceivable given functions rely on it...
...for instance a bottle of cola can be... say :

a blunt weapon
it can be a jar
it can be a flute for music
a tool for smashing potatoes nuts or whatever say a hammer and so on...

all these examples and innumerable more make together the ultra object that a bottle of cola contains in its property´s and that can be thought of when in relation...and if it is true that we see in it what we want and what we need, its also true, that we only can see, what is there to be seen in the first place...


Are you serious or do you just like wasting time with a bit of tug-of-war? Which is it? If its tug-of-war you win! On second thought, if you're serious you win again! LMFAO

Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 09:37 am
@guigus,
I suggest you read my latest post and be done with it. A friend of mine named Ric likes to dig in his heels and dare you to move him. Thanks for participating in this thread.
0 Replies
 
Dasein
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 09:46 am
@guigus,
One other thing. There is a topic entitled Philosophy: What's the point? on this website. I invite you to read it. Go to http://able2know.org/topic/163644-1

Given what you've contributed so far, I think you will really enjoy the thread. I welcome your comments.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 11:14 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 12:03 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.


In a sense you are correct: meaning is us. However, it is precisely because we both produce it and are produced by it, since it drives our actions, which include producing the material world we live in.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 04:23 pm
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.


In a sense you are correct: meaning is us. However, it is precisely because we both produce it and are produced by it, since it drives our actions, which include producing the material world we live in.
I think the proper way of saying it is that Meaning is Being... We must live to perceive meaning, and we can only find real meaning in that we we see as being.... It is the reason why God does not have more meaning to more people.... We can give God meaning out of our own storehouse of meaning; but because God does not exist in a tangible fashion we are limited in the amount of meaning we can give to God, because too much meaning to God means we are throwing ourselves on the alter for the benefit of God, when, if God is God, that is the last thing God needs...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 04:36 pm
@Dasein,
Win ?...hummm...what do I win ? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 04:44 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.


In a sense you are correct: meaning is us. However, it is precisely because we both produce it and are produced by it, since it drives our actions, which include producing the material world we live in.
I think the proper way of saying it is that Meaning is Being... We must live to perceive meaning, and we can only find real meaning in that we we see as being.... It is the reason why God does not have more meaning to more people.... We can give God meaning out of our own storehouse of meaning; but because God does not exist in a tangible fashion we are limited in the amount of meaning we can give to God, because too much meaning to God means we are throwing ourselves on the alter for the benefit of God, when, if God is God, that is the last thing God needs...


You are just making a soup in which God is meaning, which is life, which is being... This is poetry, not philosophy.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 11:08 pm
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.


In a sense you are correct: meaning is us. However, it is precisely because we both produce it and are produced by it, since it drives our actions, which include producing the material world we live in.
I think the proper way of saying it is that Meaning is Being... We must live to perceive meaning, and we can only find real meaning in that we we see as being.... It is the reason why God does not have more meaning to more people.... We can give God meaning out of our own storehouse of meaning; but because God does not exist in a tangible fashion we are limited in the amount of meaning we can give to God, because too much meaning to God means we are throwing ourselves on the alter for the benefit of God, when, if God is God, that is the last thing God needs...


You are just making a soup in which God is meaning, which is life, which is being... This is poetry, not philosophy.
May be, if bad poetry can be good philosophy, then I can agree...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 06:43 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fido wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

Concise and logical; no object creates meaning. Humans do.

It is more correct to say that humans perceive meaning as a gradient of value of one thing or quality compared to another... It is life that is meaning, and no one can be said to create it... It is while it is, and then it isn't... What we find meaningful contributes to life.


In a sense you are correct: meaning is us. However, it is precisely because we both produce it and are produced by it, since it drives our actions, which include producing the material world we live in.
I think the proper way of saying it is that Meaning is Being... We must live to perceive meaning, and we can only find real meaning in that we we see as being.... It is the reason why God does not have more meaning to more people.... We can give God meaning out of our own storehouse of meaning; but because God does not exist in a tangible fashion we are limited in the amount of meaning we can give to God, because too much meaning to God means we are throwing ourselves on the alter for the benefit of God, when, if God is God, that is the last thing God needs...


You are just making a soup in which God is meaning, which is life, which is being... This is poetry, not philosophy.
May be, if bad poetry can be good philosophy, then I can agree...


Don't fool yourself.
0 Replies
 
 

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