sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 05:20 pm
Will get to you all tomorrow,
sorry for the wait

All my best,
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 05:21 pm
@sometime sun,
Hi Sun!

What God? I will answer for biblical and own.

Everything that loves - Hates, both equally and exactly.

Hope that helps!

Shine On Sun.
mark...
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 05:40 pm
@sometime sun,
Hi Sun!

Yes the biblical God hates.

Proverbs 6:16 - 8:13 - Isaiah 61:8 - Jeremiah 44:4 - Amos 5:21 - Zechariah 8:17.

There should be enough proof in these verses to prove that (biblical) God HATES!

Shine on Sun...
mark...
ABYA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 06:07 pm
What is hate?
In our world, when someone hates another person, this means he wishes evil for him.
In spitituality, the concept of "hate" means something completely different to what it means to us in our world. Hate signifies that there is no point of contact between two objects and there is no closeness between them.
Hate is the opposition of two objects or states.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 01:26 pm
@Krumple,
sometime sun wrote:

We have had this conversation before and you did not get what I was saying, hell is a man made situation be it on earth or in the after life, it was built by man and the devil (which is also man) it houses suffering "the dead don't lie because they know the whole truth" the hell will be knowing existing the truth pain and suffering you inflicted while able to do so.

Krumple wrote:

How? Pain is only a signal sent to the brain when a nerve is triggered. You mean to tell me your soul has a nervous system? That is counter intuitive. Why would the soul have a nervous system? If I was just a disembodied mind then what is causing the pain? Some visions, some remorse? Being fed experiencing of other people? That does nothing. You feel someone else pain? So you will what? Sympathize and regret your actions? That is silly.

This is a brilliant question,
Does the soul have a nervous system?
And you know we are not talking about physical pain,
so if the soul has a nervous system it is more a polarity, the heavier it is to its south say how much pain it has caused therefore confused its frequency therefore need cleansing of this heavy energy needs to punish or purge its self, PURGATION.
So yes I would say the soul has a nervous system of sorts,
even if the soul has no self or possibly not even a mind it has and knows pain.
I will think on soul construction and get back to with a fuller answer and description.
So no no sympathy or regret they are human traits but it does mean a balancing of energy and cancelling of negative energies which means experiencing the pain you created.
I may be just theorising here but it does sound almost right to me, needs some tweaking and better use of language but it is a basis for me.
Krumple wrote:

The ONLY reason people hurt each other is because they are trying to obtain happiness. It is why I can forgive everyone and anyone because they are just like me, cursed with lacking contentment. If people knew the best solution but chose to use another method because they would rather cause harm then and only then would I consider it truly evil. However; no one, absolutely no one knows the best solution, so you can't accuse anyone of being evil. Anyone who does, is flat wrong.

I don't believe in evil.
Pain is only the search for happiness, yes I can see that, and you may be correct even that there is no hell after the fact, all I know is that the pain I have inflicted in my life I suffer for and am in torment for.
After life is anyones guess.


sometime sun wrote:

They will be relived of their pain because they will see the truth, you will know the pain because you will see the truth, it really is not any more simple than that, people are in hell now while they live, I am not so sure guilt
will play a roll because guilt is a lie, but pain is not a lie, pain is very real and very truthful so unless you are forgiven you will know the pain you have inflicted, simple as that.

Krumple wrote:

I won't ever feel guilty, because I have never felt guilty over anything I have ever done. I know I have caused hurt on others but I don't feel guilty about it. It is not my fault, it is the fault of ignorance. If I knew the best solution, I would take it, but I don't know the best solution so I make mistakes. I don't feel guilty about that. It is not my fault. Force me to experience their perspective, my position still stands.

Lucky you do not feel guilt,
I may but I still hold guilt is a lie.
Yes ignorance here I can see and understand its place in your and my thinking.
But where my ignorance reigns Gods knowledge is essential.
I may not know but God does.
What you describe is a very tangible possibility for the non existence of hell.


sometime sun wrote:

And I am not of the mind that Jesus can forgive me either merely with Jesus you will come to forgive.

Krumple wrote:

See most people find this incredibly difficult to do. I fine it incredibly easy to forgive. Because of my out look. As I have mentioned before, it is this curse of contentment which is the root to our problems. I don't ever blame the person, I see the fault in the curse itself. That gives me the ability to look beyond what they have ever done and see them as a person just like me, who is blind and randomly struggling to find happiness any way they can.

I find it east to forgive also,
Give me a nights sleep and I will find it and almost always do it.
But I do wonder if I do this so easily because I too believ I would like to be forgiven?
Again what you describe is a very real possibility.


sometime sun wrote:

And you don't need to feel guilty for not Believing in Jesus, you are not worng for not believing in Christ you are wrong for not believing in yourself, your inner Christ.

Krumple wrote:

I have no need for twisting it like that. But you are wrong about me not believing in myself. I don't have a self, it is an illusion that will fade into oblivion. I am perfectly fine with that too. I neither want to nor need to live for ever. It would cheapen this existence if i did live for ever.

I certainly never said you do not believe in yourself in fact what I meant when I said that was that you had already became as Him.
But as you say you do not need yourself, you may be closer to your real form already, you may be closer to being as soul, as God.
Without self.
You cant really fully do it until dead but I applaud your goal and healthy realisation that self needs to fade into oblivion.
I don't want to live forever either, and unless I am shown something after that I did not know and would could should know about "after life" and eternal existence then I am more than happy to ask God to let me sleep and let me go, but the fact remains I may not have that choice, that soul suicide may be against the nature of reality.
But I don't fear the void, it feels quite safe for me really.
I dont expect eternal life from God, I expect answers.


sometime sun wrote:

I don't like evangelising all that much and I must sound this way right now, but Krumple I would say your self belief and presence and goodness will get you any number of blisses and joys your heart is true enough to need.

Krumple wrote:

No, the self is nothing more than a source of torment. It is transcending the need to feel the self requires something is the only place you can be free.

Clean soul. Agreed.

sometime sun wrote:

You may not get it now but you will when you know the truth and know no lies.

Krumple wrote:

The truth is, god does not exist.

God may be and not exist at the same time?

If we focus on the word exist, I may even agree that God does not exist.

sometime sun wrote:

Heck who am I to say you don't already have it, heaven can be on earth as well you know. all I know is I don't cant or wont have it, but one day I will, and what ever hell I must suffer to gain my heaven I am going to do.

Krumple wrote:

I guess when you get nothing, you won't know it so it might as well be heaven.



sometime sun wrote:

I hope you know I condemn no one to hell, I cant, no one can but themselves.,

Krumple wrote:

And I say if a god allowed someone to condemn themselves then it is not worthy of praise, worship or even being labeled as god.

This I don't understand.
To give us any freedom means alos that we can be given the responsibility of self or soul correction, damnation is not permanent unless that is what the damned want for themselves, it means real freedom and real responsibility, it means we are actually worth something.

Krumple wrote:

To put it another way, it would be like your parent asking you to to do something and if you did it, it would reward you with something nice, but if you don't, then it is going to abandon you. The parent isn't showing any respect for the child at all, it is only concerned with the "task" it is presenting to you. You can not tell me that the parent cares yet is giving the child this ultimatum.

sometime sun wrote:

Sadly I can not be the one to carry anyone to heaven either except as the rule I live by "forgive them all as swiftly as possible, they will have a hard enough time doing it for them selves ".

Krumple wrote:

Like I said, I have absolutely no problem or difficulty forgiving anyone and everyone. It doesn't matter what they have done.

So what you said about serial killers being as God holds no substance.
Or is this just that you do not forgive something that doe snot exist so there is no reason to forgive?

sometime sun wrote:

That is your complete right, but you should know teasing someone by saying you have an answer and then not giving it is being a think tease. (sun smile)

Krumple wrote:

Most do not like my answers so I don't always give them.

You should not presume this for me, so in future please dont.

sometime sun wrote:

What does would imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

Dont quite get it ????

sometime sun wrote:

What does should imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

Still little go???

sometime sun wrote:

What does could imply?

Krumple wrote:

Infinite possibility.

sometime sun wrote:

I agree with this,
but could also mean infinate impossibility

sometime sun wrote:

If you are going to rush you are going to miss something.

Krumple wrote:

Na...

I get what you mean about not rushing, but it does help when I ask you to explain yourself further so I can come to a resolution if not a little quicker than I would on my own.


sometime sun wrote:

We must make a point to do this tomorrow or latest day after.

Krumple wrote:

You won't like it.

At least show me what it is that you think I wont like before you think I wont like it. Please.
sometime sun wrote:

Please before you tell people that you cant see why not ask what it is you are looking at.

Krumple wrote:

Na, I already understand what you are looking at. So I approach from a different angle.

sometime sun wrote:

How can you say you understand what I am looking at when I would never dare say the same about you?

Krumple wrote:

You don't really care about any of this, your mind is made, you are just playing along. So do you still think I do not know?


Again you make assumptions about me that are false.
I care about what you say else I would not spend my time with you.
You may know what you know about what I am saying but you are exhibiting that you don't know me very well or at least not willing to give me the benefit of your doubt.

All my best, although I have not really given it to you this evening. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 03:57 pm
@salima,
salima wrote:

hi sometime-
i used to have some ideas on this, if i can drag them out again...

one is:
that hate is a destructive force. it not only kills everything it comes into contact with, it consumes the host from the inside out like a cancer. so if god had as much hate in him as would have to be for all the things he is accused of hating-or even one of them, for example sinners...by now he would have burned himself to ashes and no longer exist. so if you believe in a god, he cant possibly hate.

Hate is very seductive I find.
And I agree with this, even a little if not extinguished quickly spreads and catches more and more until the whole forest is ablaze.
God cannot catch fire.

salima wrote:

the other is confused:
if we can have hate, and god cannot-doesnt that make us the superior being? is god not supposed to be a totality, and if god created us he created hate, then he would have not only had some but wanted to keep it going. this is not really very believable or acceptable to anyone.

Hate I would find would be what makes us inferior.
Unless hate has a function I am not aware of?

salima wrote:

the third is purely speculative and anthropomorphical:
hate is a negative value, rather the absence of something. in fact, i think hate can be a product of fear, and fear is the absence of love. furthermore, it is a phenomenon of the physical plane, and god has no physicality other than through us. so he must be able to sense and experience the hate, and it would make him very uncomfortable and he would want to try and balance it by returning signals back to physicality through us to behave oppositely.

but i dont think it is really anthropomorphicalizing to believe that hate would make god uncomfortable since it is a destructive element or destructive lack.

i know where you are going with this...dont worry, it isnt like that
salima

Yes hate is totally physical,
Yes I do wonder if to be totally human means to have hated?
and if so would not Christ have to had hated at some juncture else could not be called totally human?
Which might also mean that hate is not human or does not exist?

I wish I could take things anywhere, I seem to get so lost all the time.

All my best, you are as always a source of wonder.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 03:58 pm
@thack45,
Do you think to be irrational is to be human?
And if so do you think Christ could have ever been irrational?
He does sound angry some times.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 04:00 pm
@jcboy,
Did God rape or murder though?

I would think I would become angry and hateful if I thought my name was being used as an excuse to rape and murder, but then I am not yet God.

Thanks
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 04:05 pm
@mark noble,
Hey mark told you I would get to you, sorry I am so slow.

This tastes like truth,
The ring of it sounds complete and full and logical.

So why cant I accept it?
I would most like you to help me answer this question.

It could have something to do with me loving more than hating,
But this could just mean I do not recognise that which I am hating?
What if hate weren't as noticeable or destructive as we think?

Thanks mark and hope it is not to late of me for some of your care and attention.

All my best hopes and wishes for you and you house.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 04:35 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi Sun!

Yes the biblical God hates.

I wonder if and when this is proven that I may have to start moving away form biblical God or start accepting God does hate?

mark noble wrote:

Proverbs 6:16 - 8:13 -

6:16; There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17, haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18, a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19, a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
You are absolutely right it does say God hates.
All I can think of at the moment to disprove this would be to look into what a proverb is and whether the form is not that which wrong over what it is declaring?
In other words perhaps it is a proverb for a reason and not directly what God feels?
Is hate a feeling?
8:13, To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behaviour and perverse speech.

I am not sure it says here that God hates,
That which is speaking is not necessarily God,
that which is speaking in these verses is wisdom calling out,
if you look at the verse that comes before this it says
12, "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence
I possess knowledge and wisdom

So the inevitable question comes is it then wise to hate?
mark noble wrote:

Isaiah 61:8 -

For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery and iniquity.
In my faithfulness I will reward them
and make everlasting covenant with them.

Again it does appear these are meant to be the words of the LORD.

mark noble wrote:

Jeremiah 44:4 -

Again and again I sent my servants the prophets, who said 'Do not do this thing that I hate!'

Do you think this is the prophets speaking or God,
Or are the words of all prophets the words of God?

mark noble wrote:

Amos 5:21 -

"I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies;
The LORD again says that It hates.
I wish I could trust the OT more.
mark noble wrote:

Zechariah 8:17.

do not plot evil against your neighbour, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this" declares the LORD

I really have no way of defending my position against these Scriptures other than to say the LORD may have hated sometime but since becoming whole and Christ and the Trinity It no longer needs to hate.
Also the the words came from the mouths of prophets not directly from God mouth to my ear.
Would you agree these things need to be hated mark?

mark noble wrote:

There should be enough proof in these verses to prove that (biblical) God HATES!

Shine on Sun...
mark...

Yes the OT God does seem to hat e a bit.
Can you grow out of hate?
Or must it be grown into?
Do you think Christ of the new Testament hates?
Must I change my view that God does not hate because of these Scriptures?
What do you think mark what should I do?

All my best and thank you greatly for the effort of finding Scripture for me.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 04:38 pm
@ABYA,
Love will keep us together.
Hate will tear us apart.
That is what I am hearing from you.
Am I correct?
I am still not sure if hate is an evil, could you expand on this please.
Thank you greatly for your contribution.

All my best,
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 04:59 pm
@sometime sun,
Hi Sun!

No! Christ is not the handwritten God of the old testament. Christ does not hate.

xxx
mark...
ABYA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2010 09:18 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:

Love will keep us together.
Hate will tear us apart.
That is what I am hearing from you.
Am I correct?
I am still not sure if hate is an evil, could you expand on this please.
Thank you greatly for your contribution.

All my best,

Hi Sun
I will try to explain what I meant by saying that spiritual hate is the opposition between two states.
First you need to forget the corporeal meaning of hate. The bible only talks of spirituality.
Hate is essential. We must hate what we percieve as the evilness within us.
Its not enough that we love God and want to be in union with him, we must hate our evil nature, those desires for self gratification that we can't get rid of, and those aspects of ourself that we see as being opposite to our perceptions of God, or goodness.
Now imagine a vision of spirituality as being one of perpetual pleasure, peace, perfection and eternity, and a state we desire to be in.
The opposition between these two states of selfishness and godliness is what is called "hatred" in the bible.
We feel this hatred as a force that is pushing us away from our egoism towards spirituality.
God hates x, means that God is completely opposite from x. with no point of contact between them.


sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 01:43 pm
@ABYA,
Thank you for a thorough and self explanatory post.
You are great I think I understand you.
Hate is not an action!
Hate is an opposition!
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 01:57 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:

Love will keep us together.
Hate will tear us apart.
That is what I am hearing from you.
Am I correct?
I am still not sure if hate is an evil, could you expand on this please.
Thank you greatly for your contribution.

All my best,


GO CAPTAIN GO CAPTAIN GO CAPTAIN ..... oh and Tenille
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 09:44 am
@mark noble,
Please expand on "handwritten"

x
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 09:51 am
@GoshisDead,
Thanks GoshisDead,
I put this song on and crossed my legs in my chair and swung around in it,
it was a nice evening and have been humming this song all day.

Don't you think the old lady singing in the video looks like Betty White?
I love Betty White,
I wish I was American just so I could hold her as my national treasure.
So instead will hold her as an international treasure.
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:03 am
So it's a;right to Hate since the Lord does it too ?
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:45 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
The LORD OT may have hated?
Christ NT does not.

Good point though;
Was the reason they said the LORD hated so that they could continue?
Makes you wonder about History and how time and religiosity is weeding out possible dangers such as hate.

Is it now politically incorrect to hate?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:46 am
@sometime sun,
Hi sun!

Collossians 2:14.

xxx
Mark...
 

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