Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 04:14 pm
*answer one, some or all, better still complete the set and ask one of your own*

God Hate.

I have no idea how God could hate at all.

Could someone please explain to me God hate.

If God exists does Gods hate?

How can God hate exist?

How can God hate?

Where in Scripture is it cited God hates?

And if you think it does not exist, do you think it should?

What other things could should or would there be God could should or would exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could not should not would not there be God could should or would exist?)
or
What other things could not would not should not be God could not should not would not exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could should would there be God could not should not would not exist?)

Is there anything that God should exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God could exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God would exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God should not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God could not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God would not exist? But doesn't or does?

Thanks
sometime sun
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Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 06:40 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:
I have no idea how God could hate at all.


Well maybe because you are not looking at it from the right perspective?

sometime sun wrote:

Could someone please explain to me God hate.


Maybe we should back up and first discuss what hate is.

In my opinion hate is a response to a failed result of an attachment to a outcome or property. Basically wanting things to be a certain way and when they do not end up the way in which you wanted, hate can arise. (however; it doesn't always arise as hate)

So if we use my context. If god as a desired result or expecting a certain property to be present and that result or property does not manifest then there is a chance that hate would arise. However; if god does not expect a certain outcome nor property to be, then the chances of hate arising is practically non-existent.

With that said, the rest of your questions really don't help much.

sometime sun wrote:

If God exists does Gods hate?


Potentially yes.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate exist?


As I pointed out in my definition. If god is expecting a certain outcome which does not arise then there is a chance that hatred would arise.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate?


It is just a response to wanting things to be a certain way.

sometime sun wrote:

Where in Scripture is it cited God hates?


Are you kidding me?

sometime sun wrote:

And if you think it does not exist, do you think it should?


I think a god that has any emotions what so ever including the "positive" ones is not worthy of being called a god, in my opinion. Let alone having hatred or anger.

sometime sun wrote:

What other things could should or would there be God could should or would exist? Good or bad.

or
(What other things could not should not would not there be God could should or would exist?)
or
What other things could not would not should not be God could not should not would not exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could should would there be God could not should not would not exist?)


Those questions don't make any sense.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God should exist? But does or doesn't?


Yeah, god should manifest itself if it is placing a damnation onto a being for not believing in it. Without doing so, it is immoral.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God could exist? But does or doesn't?


Sure, there could be many things.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God would exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God should not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God could not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God would not exist? But doesn't or does?


Not liking the rest of these questions because they are nothing more than the same question asked over and over.
urangutan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:15 pm
Krumple, you are just the tease.

God hates fanaticisim and fundamentalism. This is not limitless.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:26 pm
@urangutan,
urangutan wrote:

Krumple, you are just the tease.

God hates fanaticisim and fundamentalism. This is not limitless.


well i don't even hate fanaticism or fundamentalism, i just think they are ignorant people. I think if a god hates anything it is a sign that it does not have any kind of omniscience.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 07:43 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun You know that I think you are great but your way of questioning overwhelms me and it seems that I have read others write the same thing.
This is your thread so it will be done your way, the only thing that I am saying is that all of these questions could be asked 1 at a time or a few at a time. who knows you may have more responces but what do I know because if you look at your responces you do seem to be doing good but that might be because you are just a likeable person. Do not get me wrong as I also find you to be smart.
sometime sun
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 08:53 pm
@Krumple,

sometime sun wrote:
I have no idea how God could hate at all.

Krumple wrote:

Well maybe because you are not looking at it from the right perspective?

Let's see hope yours is helpful then.
sometime sun wrote:

Could someone please explain to me God hate.

Krumple wrote:

Maybe we should back up and first discuss what hate is.

In my opinion hate is a response to a failed result of an attachment to a outcome or property. Basically wanting things to be a certain way and when they do not end up the way in which you wanted, hate can arise. (however; it doesn't always arise as hate)

Yes I should have asked what peoples understanding of hate is.

Everybody; What is hate?

But in doing so I find I must also ask this one.

Everybody; What is God,
Everybody; What is God with or God without?

So hate is a cause and null effect to you?
Or at least not a fortune?
Not a fate?
Or just not a preferential prophecy?
Sounds like a disappointment more than anything.
Is that where hate arises from, disappointment?
We hate all winners who are not I?
Hate is awfully egotistical then.

Krumple wrote:

So if we use my context. If god as a desired result or expecting a certain property to be present and that result or property does not manifest then there is a chance that hate would arise. However; if god does not expect a certain outcome nor property to be, then the chances of hate arising is practically non-existent.

With that said, the rest of your questions really don't help much.

You see although I ma unsure about your description of hate,
I must declare I do not think God can see the future.
God can read probability better than anything but God cannot tell your fortune.
So if I were to agree with your description of hate I would have to also concede God is possibly able to hate.
I still believe because It is God It cant hate,
but if I agreed God were solely a man and a man's hate only arose when their desires failed them I would have to agree with you God could possibly sometime hate.
Still not convinced though.

sometime sun wrote:

If God exists does Gods hate?

Krumple wrote:

Potentially yes.

I just agreed with your potentiality unless you are speaking of another situation or potential other than God not being able to see the future.
Was my admittance of the potential the same as yours?
if not what scenario leads you to say "potentially yes"?
sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate exist?

Krumple wrote:

As I pointed out in my definition. If god is expecting a certain outcome which does not arise then there is a chance that hatred would arise.

Well you just cleared that up.
You also believe God does not know the outcome of all?
sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate?

Krumple wrote:

It is just a response to wanting things to be a certain way.

What makes you think God responds or is responsive?
What makes you think God is not "cool" with what ever happens?
sometime sun wrote:

Where in Scripture is it cited God hates?

Krumple wrote:

Are you kidding me?

Fair question by me, I love Scripture I would love read any that said God hated so I could at least attempt to discredit it.
So no I am not kidding.
sometime sun wrote:

And if you think it does not exist, do you think it should?

Krumple wrote:

I think a god that has any emotions what so ever including the "positive" ones is not worthy of being called a god, in my opinion. Let alone having hatred or anger.

Agreed God has only one emotion or none.
sometime sun wrote:

What other things could should or would there be God could should or would exist? Good or bad.

or
(What other things could not should not would not there be God could should or would exist?)
or
What other things could not would not should not be God could not should not would not exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could should would there be God could not should not would not exist?)

Krumple wrote:

Those questions don't make any sense.

I will do the first one for you, I don't have the time to do them all.
What other things could there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
See how I question Gods ability and omniscients, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, his morality and a few other things I think you are capable of finding for yourself?
There is a bit more to this line than I can be bothered with explaining, try and figure it out your self and see if there is not one question of mine or conclusion of mine that combines them all.
I am sick of doing all the bloody work. (forced smile)
sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God should exist? But does or doesn't?

Krumple wrote:

Yeah, god should manifest itself if it is placing a damnation onto a being for not believing in it. Without doing so, it is immoral.

I don't believe it is God that damns, God only knows how to save, but God is neither moral not immoral.
Tell me if you've heard it before; God is God is God is God.
sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God could exist? But does or doesn't?

Krumple wrote:

Sure, there could be many things.

That's where you are supposed to inspect a little more or perhaps, Oh I don't know, tell me what those many things could be.
Don't think just because you responded you answered anything.
sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God would exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God should not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God could not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God would not exist? But doesn't or does?

Krumple wrote:

Not liking the rest of these questions because they are nothing more than the same question asked over and over.

What does would imply?
What does should imply?
What does could imply?
And do they really share the same inquiry, indication or supposition?
If you are going to rush you are going to miss something.
Now whether you are invested or interested enough to take some time is up to you, but before you say something does not make sense or is the same please at least spend more than five minutes and try to appreciate if there is a sense or difference or another possible way of looking at things,

Please before you tell people that you cant see why not ask what it is you are looking at.

All my best as always.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 09:12 pm
@reasoning logic,
I think you are great as well.
Which was why the very first line warns you,
*answer one some or all, better still ask one your own*
The choice is utterly yours if you become overwhelmed.
I start off by giving you the reigns.
This was for the most part a complete accident tonight, it was only really supposed to be about God hate but then it turned into something more for me and thought it better not waste inspiration than hide from it.
There are layers to my form and implication.
What I really want is for you to find and ask me the hidden implication and questions.
Has the question been asked so many times you have become bored of giving any answer?

I am a blister in your mind, but once it pops I will finally know what it is to be discovered.
I have already cheated tonight and given far to much away to Krumple for my own good.
I appreciate your statement but I would prefer an answer or a QUESTION, (sun chews a grin but still doesn't spit it out)

All my best dear adventurer,
Please give it another try.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 09:32 pm
I am sorry about my tude tonight, I seem a little unfunny.
I should not be being nearly rude to the very few people who do even bother to read or reply.
Even if I am trying to joke with you.
Thanks truly for anything you give and attempt, I will try to pull my self and form back for a little while.
Don't quit me sugar I need your sweets,
I have been testing my humour out tonight and still finding I have a poor grasp on it.

All my chocolate covered..........bbbbon bons.
sometime sun
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 09:40 pm
In Psalms we are told that God hates and abhors deceitful men. God hates and wants to destroy all those who tell lies.
http://www.gospel.com/topics/god+hates
and
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+16:22&version=NIV
This is one search, it took a couple of seconds.

ETA: here you go: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+6:16&version=ESV
there are six things that the LORD hates
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 09:54 pm
@ughaibu,
Hey ughaibu great to see you,
What are your interpretations and understandings of these Scriptures?
I love the Psalms but think I must have overlooked this one, which Psalm is it?

Do you trust these Scriptures?
Do you think they are open to any other interpretation that may mean the hate is not a Godly position?
Do you believe God hates?

All my best,
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 09:58 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:
great to see you
Thanks, you too.
sometime sun wrote:
Do you believe God hates?
I see no reason to suppose that there are any gods.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 10:12 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:
I have no idea how God could hate at all.

Krumple wrote:

Well maybe because you are not looking at it from the right perspective?


sometime sun wrote:

Let's see hope yours is helpful then.


Was it helpful?

sometime sun wrote:

Could someone please explain to me God hate.

Krumple wrote:

Maybe we should back up and first discuss what hate is.

In my opinion hate is a response to a failed result of an attachment to a outcome or property. Basically wanting things to be a certain way and when they do not end up the way in which you wanted, hate can arise. (however; it doesn't always arise as hate)

sometime sun wrote:

Yes I should have asked what peoples understanding of hate is.

Everybody; What is hate?

But in doing so I find I must also ask this one.

Everybody; What is God,


A figment of the imagination.

sometime sun wrote:

Everybody; What is God with or God without?


Imagination, can be used for the answer to both.

sometime sun wrote:

So hate is a cause and null effect to you?
Or at least not a fortune?
Not a fate?
Or just not a preferential prophecy?
Sounds like a disappointment more than anything.
Is that where hate arises from, disappointment?
We hate all winners who are not I?
Hate is awfully egotistical then.


Which is why I find it incredibly low and one sign of people who hate is ignorance. They do not see that the object of their hatred is really themselves refusing to accept that there will be things that do not go, or will not be the way in which you want them to be. People who accept this common fact rarely ever hate anything what so ever. Not even the really horrible stuff, because they understand that really horrible things will happen at some point and there is nothing you can do about it. Accepting that fact does not mean that you agree with it or allow it to happen, it just means you acknowledge reality.

So if people say, god hates sin, well then god is not worthy of being called a god then. Because that is just ignorant.

Krumple wrote:

So if we use my context. If god as a desired result or expecting a certain property to be present and that result or property does not manifest then there is a chance that hate would arise. However; if god does not expect a certain outcome nor property to be, then the chances of hate arising is practically non-existent.

With that said, the rest of your questions really don't help much.
Quote:


sometime sun wrote:

You see although I ma unsure about your description of hate,
I must declare I do not think God can see the future.


If god can not see the future, then god can not be omniscient. However; I applaud you with your perspective even though I bet a huge majority of theists would not agree with you on this. The reason I applaud you is because your perspective holds true to the biblical account. Anyone who disagrees then is saying the biblical account is not accurate. They then can not claim they believe the bible is errant and also at the same time hold the notion that god can see the future. Both can not be true.

sometime sun wrote:

God can read probability better than anything but God cannot tell your fortune.


Kind of puts a damper on the who prophecy and prophet doesn't it?

sometime sun wrote:

So if I were to agree with your description of hate I would have to also concede God is possibly able to hate.


Yes, but to continue with this, then in my opinion god would not be worthy of the title, god, if it is subject to hatred.

sometime sun wrote:

I still believe because It is God It cant hate,
but if I agreed God were solely a man and a man's hate only arose when their desires failed them I would have to agree with you God could possibly sometime hate.


Well see that is the problem with trying to personify a god notion. But I find it incredibly contradictory that someone will say;

"God is not a person, you can not attribute humanistic qualities to god."

but then turn around and say;

"God is all loving."

Both of those statements can not be true. You can't strip away human qualities and then only give back the ones you want because you want certain ones to be true to god. It is absurd reasoning from my perspective because in my opinion love is conditional. It has to be. You can't just have spontaneous love arising without any cause, it just does not happen. Yet people don't think that far or analyze what they are claiming, they just say it because they have heard it a million times and leave it at that.

sometime sun wrote:

Still not convinced though.


I think the problem is, you want god to be a certain way. Now that you are analyzing it, you are discovering that your old notion simply contradicts itself so in spite of your new perspective you are refusing to accept it. You want or need god to be a certain way and anything that conflicts with that you will dismiss on principle.

sometime sun wrote:

If God exists does Gods hate?

Krumple wrote:

Potentially yes.

I just agreed with your potentiality unless you are speaking of another situation or potential other than God not being able to see the future.


If god exists, it could potentially be subject to hate, if it is having expectations which are not being met. However; it would not qualify to be a god if it has expectations.

sometime sun wrote:

Was my admittance of the potential the same as yours?


Yeah but of course you know where I stand, the whole thing is actually canceled anyways because I don't think a god actually exists to start with.

sometime sun wrote:

if not what scenario leads you to say "potentially yes"?


Well since we have the ability to have hatred arise, then it's not so far fetched that a god could also have the ability. However; hatred is a very petty emotion and based in ignorance. So I would assume that a god would not have ignorance, so it could never really reach the point of hatred. However; love is also based in ignorance as well, but people will refuse to accept that so I tend to lean away from making statements like that.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate exist?

Krumple wrote:

As I pointed out in my definition. If god is expecting a certain outcome which does not arise then there is a chance that hatred would arise.

Well you just cleared that up.
You also believe God does not know the outcome of all?


Well, a god could technically know the out come of all things. But that is where the problem comes up. If it knew the out come of all things then getting mad, upset, angry or disappointed is incredibly silly.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate?

Krumple wrote:

It is just a response to wanting things to be a certain way.

What makes you think God responds or is responsive?[/quote]

Just an aspect. It is possible that it doesn't react to anything at all. Completely passive to all things. It doesn't help us with these questions then because it would be even more silly if a passive god got upset or hated something then.

sometime sun wrote:

What makes you think God is not "cool" with what ever happens?


If god were "cool" with everything then this is the kind of god I could respect.

Here is a little scenario I would like to add to this.

Let's say after I die, I come before some god. This god asks me some questions about my life. Asks me why I did not believe in it's existence. I would have some questions of my own.

From my perspective I can not bring myself to respect any being that would justify the killing or murder of another being simply because it did not follow certain line of thinking. I deplore any god that would support or suggest that it's followers torture or even injure those who are not accepting of their beliefs. So I would have to ask, "Are you the god that is of the Christian text or Muslim text?"

If that god answers yes, then I would not respect, admire or adhere to anything it had to say after that. I don't care what it would do to me after that, but I would want or have nothing to do with it from that point on. I don't care what it would have to say as it's defense. Destroy me, send me away, what ever, it would not matter, but for me to be in it's presence is more than what it would deserve.

If it says no, then we have a whole bunch of other things to discuss.

sometime sun wrote:

Where in Scripture is it cited God hates?

Krumple wrote:

Are you kidding me?

Fair question by me, I love Scripture I would love read any that said God hated so I could at least attempt to discredit it.
So no I am not kidding.[/quote]

Killing the first born of Egypt? There is absolutely nothing to justify this except for hatred. Sure it doesn't actually use the word hatred in the text but that is the whole motivation behind the story. It is depicting god in a moment of extreme hatred.


sometime sun wrote:

And if you think it does not exist, do you think it should?

Krumple wrote:

I think a god that has any emotions what so ever including the "positive" ones is not worthy of being called a god, in my opinion. Let alone having hatred or anger.

Agreed God has only one emotion or none.[/quote]

One? Which one?

sometime sun wrote:

What other things could should or would there be God could should or would exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could not should not would not there be God could should or would exist?)
or
What other things could not would not should not be God could not should not would not exist? Good or bad.
or
(What other things could should would there be God could not should not would not exist?)

Krumple wrote:

Those questions don't make any sense.

I will do the first one for you, I don't have the time to do them all.
What other things could there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
See how I question Gods ability and omniscients, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, his morality and a few other things I think you are capable of finding for yourself?[/quote]

There are so many things, I don't even have the time to bring them up, and I don't even think I should begin to start answering this because then it would seem like I am weighting them on importance but no, they would just be possibilities.

sometime sun wrote:

There is a bit more to this line than I can be bothered with explaining, try and figure it out your self and see if there is not one question of mine or conclusion of mine that combines them all.
I am sick of doing all the bloody work. (forced smile)


Well the problem with could, would, should is that they really answer each other in certain ways. Because could can include should and would so why even start with could? I would drop the could, because it by default includes would and should. Sure there could be other things that do not fall into would or should but then the answer becomes almost infinity large. I mean anything you want to imagine could all into the "could" category. So why not stick with just would or should?

Now would and should, imply some kind of decision making as well, like determining motivation behind it. That is a huge mess to get into because you will either get attacked on discussion motivation or the motivation itself is something that becomes the topic instead of what you are answering behind would or should. So why not dial this one back to motivation and then later we can get into the would and should stuff once we determine motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God should exist? But does or doesn't?

Krumple wrote:

Yeah, god should manifest itself if it is placing a damnation onto a being for not believing in it. Without doing so, it is immoral.

I don't believe it is God that damns, God only knows how to save, but God is neither moral not immoral.[/quote]

See I find your response here incredibly insulting. It basically says that god has no control over your fate at all, yet he is imposing a response. Now if he never wanted or expected you to believe in Jesus then there is absolutely no way that you would be divided. But that is not the case. The whole point of Christianity is to accept Jesus and obey god's commandments. Which means there is a condition and how you respond to that condition will determine your fate. That to me is incredibly insulting. It does not mean that god cares about you at all because if it did care, it would not impose anything on you.

To put it another way, it would be like your parent asking you to to do something and if you did it, it would reward you with something nice, but if you don't, then it is going to abandon you. The parent isn't showing any respect for the child at all, it is only concerned with the "task" it is presenting to you. You can not tell me that the parent cares yet is giving the child this ultimatum.

sometime sun wrote:

Tell me if you've heard it before; God is God is God is God.


More nonsense.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God could exist? But does or doesn't?

Krumple wrote:

Sure, there could be many things.

That's where you are supposed to inspect a little more or perhaps, Oh I don't know, tell me what those many things could be.
Don't think just because you responded you answered anything.[/quote]

No, because to leave out favoritism I will avoid answering because there are certain things that might be important to me, but other things that are just as important that would get missed. So to prevent them being overlooked I refuse to answer.

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God would exist? But does or doesn't?
Is there anything that God should not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God could not exist? But doesn't or does?
Is there anything that God would not exist? But doesn't or does?

Krumple wrote:

Not liking the rest of these questions because they are nothing more than the same question asked over and over.

What does would imply?[/quote]

Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

What does should imply?


Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

What does could imply?


Infinite possibility.

sometime sun wrote:

And do they really share the same inquiry, indication or supposition?


Yes some of them over lap and others are infinitely large.

sometime sun wrote:

If you are going to rush you are going to miss something.
Now whether you are invested or interested enough to take some time is up to you, but before you say something does not make sense or is the same please at least spend more than five minutes and try to appreciate if there is a sense or difference or another possible way of looking at things


Like I mentioned previously. It would be far better to discus motivation. Because within motivation it would help you to answer the could, would and should questions.

sometime sun wrote:

Please before you tell people that you cant see why not ask what it is you are looking at.


Na, I already understand what you are looking at. So I approach from a different angle.
sometime sun
 
  0  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2010 10:12 pm
@ughaibu,
Do you think hate is a supposition or more than this?

How would you interpret and describe and if need be discount hate?

Do you trust hate exists?

Can hate be trusted?

Thanks,
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 03:00 am
@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Well maybe because you are not looking at it from the right perspective?


sometime sun wrote:

Let's see hope yours is helpful then.

Krumple wrote:

Was it helpful?

Yes and no for some reason either I have not yet fully understood it or not yet fully grasped it.
It has not yet captured me....yet
"Hate comes from desires not being met" just does not seem like total disclosure. Yet, I'll give it some time.


sometime sun wrote:

Yes I should have asked what peoples understanding of hate is.

Everybody; What is hate?

But in doing so I find I must also ask this one.

Everybody; What is God,

Krumple wrote:

A figment of the imagination.

If anything it is a 'fragment' of the imagination

sometime sun wrote:

Everybody; What is God with or God without?

Krumple wrote:

Imagination, can be used for the answer to both.

Even if I agreed with you that God has imagination........scrub that,
I totally agree you.
This answer is true for both a believer and non believer.
God is with total imagination and is totally without it

sometime sun wrote:

So hate is a cause and null effect to you?
Or at least not a fortune?
Not a fate?
Or just not a preferential prophecy?
Sounds like a disappointment more than anything.
Is that where hate arises from, disappointment?
We hate all winners who are not I?
Hate is awfully egotistical then.

Krumple wrote:

Which is why I find it incredibly low and one sign of people who hate is ignorance. They do not see that the object of their hatred is really themselves refusing to accept that there will be things that do not go, or will not be the way in which you want them to be. People who accept this common fact rarely ever hate anything what so ever. Not even the really horrible stuff, because they understand that really horrible things will happen at some point and there is nothing you can do about it. Accepting that fact does not mean that you agree with it or allow it to happen, it just means you acknowledge reality.

So if people say, god hates sin, well then god is not worthy of being called a god then. Because that is just ignorant.

I Acknowledge this reality and move one step closer to agreeing with your description of hate.
What really bugs me is people who's desire is expected to be unfulfilled, some people just worship and love hate to much for them even to feign ignorance.
What you describe dissolves both pessimism and optimism alike.
I respect this ideal even if I think you would have to God Its self to pull it off I have told you I think you are God before haven't I Krumple? Don't worry I think I am as well if you think I am playing favourites.
You see now I am unsure again because I happen to think God is either as aware as is possible or as ignorant as is possible, I still don't know which but I doubt partial to a bit of both. But this may be wrong also.

All The things that are not known are not known by God.
All the things that are known are known by God.

Spend some time with that, I think it is fundamental.

But I suppose what I must be saying with this is that hate is not ignorance or an awareness. I suppose what I could be saying also is that hate does not really exist?
Please expand on ignorance being where hate comes form or goes toward.
Please expand on ignorance.
But I do believe that God hating sin could be a contradiction and possibly a conflict of interest?
Hmmm you got me thinking now Krumple.
Is God free to sin?
Does God choose not to sin?
Is God the only true sinner or sinless?
Is God sin?
Can one exist without the other?
Full mark dear sir, I think I'm having a break through?

sometime sun wrote:

You see although I ma unsure about your description of hate,
I must declare I do not think God can see the future.

Krumple wrote:

If god can not see the future, then god can not be omniscient. However; I applaud you with your perspective even though I bet a huge majority of theists would not agree with you on this. The reason I applaud you is because your perspective holds true to the biblical account. Anyone who disagrees then is saying the biblical account is not accurate. They then can not claim they believe the bible is errant and also at the same time hold the notion that god can see the future. Both can not be true.

What biblical account are you speaking of for those who may have missed it??
But I also accept that a lot of the bible is misrepresented and confused therefore is not telling a whole truth which might as well be called lie, If I were allowed to say the bible has lies in it that is and I am mainly if not totally referring to just the old Testament.
I am a Gospel man.
I cant even remember how I found this truth God does not read tarot and loves playing dice, shame on me.
I know it has something to do with the temporal the time.
It also has to do with the fact God has evolved so did not know how all things were else God would have been complete from the beginning, but given a little time I could probably tear that apart.
Thanks was that the applause of one hand clapping? (smile)
sometime sun wrote:

God can read probability better than anything but God cannot tell your fortune.

Krumple wrote:

Kind of puts a damper on the who prophecy and prophet doesn't it?

Now this is interesting because I happen to think mortals can seer the future.
God cant but man may be able to.?
In fact I am pretty certain of it.

sometime sun wrote:

So if I were to agree with your description of hate I would have to also concede God is possibly able to hate.

Krumple wrote:

Yes, but to continue with this, then in my opinion god would not be worthy of the title, god, if it is subject to hatred.

I agree,
unless as eluded to previously the next evolution of God is for God to sin?
I heavily doubt this but my twisted logic demanded I put it down.
Or possibly hate is actually natural and not the bad thing we judge it for?
I heavily doubt this also but again my damned logic.

sometime sun wrote:

I still believe because It is God It cant hate,
but if I agreed God were solely a man and a man's hate only arose when their desires failed them I would have to agree with you God could possibly sometime hate.

Krumple wrote:

Well see that is the problem with trying to personify a god notion. But I find it incredibly contradictory that someone will say;

"God is not a person, you can not attribute humanistic qualities to god."

but then turn around and say;

"God is all loving."

Both of those statements can not be true. You can't strip away human qualities and then only give back the ones you want because you want certain ones to be true to god. It is absurd reasoning from my perspective because in my opinion love is conditional. It has to be. You can't just have spontaneous love arising without any cause, it just does not happen. Yet people don't think that far or analyze what they are claiming, they just say it because they have heard it a million times and leave it at that.

Love may not be human in nature or origin.?
Love may be supernatural?
And maybe the only way to humanise love is to have hate there in the mix?
Maybe the conditional thing is hate?
Maybe we have yet to discover what hate really is and is for?
I agree human love must be conditional if not at the start then definitely as any lasting standard,
who knows maybe unconditional love is purest hate?
sometime sun wrote:

Still not convinced though.

Krumple wrote:

I think the problem is, you want god to be a certain way. Now that you are analyzing it, you are discovering that your old notion simply contradicts itself so in spite of your new perspective you are refusing to accept it. You want or need god to be a certain way and anything that conflicts with that you will dismiss on principle.

My wants of God I could not care less about.
My need of God on the other hand is something quite simple;
You better know better than me, and You better know me better.
I am sure I could come up with more but I think that says enough for one day.

Honey Krumple you have no idea what I am willing and able to accept.

And you also should not think to on your principle dismiss my principles ability to dismiss because it is also a principle of mine to accept more readily than anyone I have ever known in my shortish yet tiresomely long life.
I have not dismissed you, I have just not come to be convinced by you, this is not a dismissal, as I really don't think I have ever done this once with you, I'm a little pained you have not yet noticed how much I rate you and inspect you and even trust you and your words.
sometime sun wrote:

If God exists does Gods hate?


sometime sun wrote:

I just agreed with your potentiality unless you are speaking of another situation or potential other than God not being able to see the future.

Krumple wrote:

If god exists, it could potentially be subject to hate, if it is having expectations which are not being met. However; it would not qualify to be a god if it has expectations.

Are hopes expectations?
I think these words are starting to sink in more, I still know there is a fundamental piece I am missing because I am starting to feel your words.
God has no idea what to expect.
God does not expect the unexpected.
I still think God does expect something but doe snot know what it is to expect.
But God does not guess,
And even if God is the best at predicting anything there ever was and is and will ever be, God does not do such things.
I have no rational what so ever as to why God would do such a thing
And certainly since God completion with the addition of Child making the trilogy, I mean Trinity, I really think God thinks there is nothing left even to hope for us.
It makes no sense, if God rules all things known and knowable and has my explanation and solvency I can only wonder what it is God would have trouble expecting from anything other than knowing and in possession of complete truth.
If you have the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth what is there to expect what you don't know already?
He found what He was looking for He needs not expect a single thing more from us.


sometime sun wrote:

if not what scenario leads you to say "potentially yes"?

Krumple wrote:

Well since we have the ability to have hatred arise, then it's not so far fetched that a god could also have the ability. However; hatred is a very petty emotion and based in ignorance. So I would assume that a god would not have ignorance, so it could never really reach the point of hatred. However; love is also based in ignorance as well, but people will refuse to accept that so I tend to lean away from making statements like that.

You see I think petty may be the wrong word.
Exactly my point form before.
Somethings such as love are all knowing and yet know nothing knowing at the same time.
sometime sun wrote:

You also believe God does not know the outcome of all?

Krumple wrote:

Well, a god could technically know the out come of all things. But that is where the problem comes up. If it knew the out come of all things then getting mad, upset, angry or disappointed is incredibly silly.

God knows what God needs to know.
And what God needs to know is the only thing worth knowing.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate?

Krumple wrote:

It is just a response to wanting things to be a certain way.

What makes you think God responds or is responsive?[/quote]
Krumple wrote:

Just an aspect. It is possible that it doesn't react to anything at all. Completely passive to all things. It doesn't help us with these questions then because it would be even more silly if a passive god got upset or hated something then.

God the impassive pasifist.
God does not care It cares

but you may then be able to say,
God cares It does not care?
sometime sun wrote:

What makes you think God is not "cool" with what ever happens?

Krumple wrote:

If god were "cool" with everything then this is the kind of god I could respect.

Here is a little scenario I would like to add to this.

Let's say after I die, I come before some god. This god asks me some questions about my life. Asks me why I did not believe in it's existence. I would have some questions of my own.

From my perspective I can not bring myself to respect any being that would justify the killing or murder of another being simply because it did not follow certain line of thinking. I deplore any god that would support or suggest that it's followers torture or even injure those who are not accepting of their beliefs. So I would have to ask, "Are you the god that is of the Christian text or Muslim text?"

If that god answers yes, then I would not respect, admire or adhere to anything it had to say after that. I don't care what it would do to me after that, but I would want or have nothing to do with it from that point on. I don't care what it would have to say as it's defense. Destroy me, send me away, what ever, it would not matter, but for me to be in it's presence is more than what it would deserve.

If it says no, then we have a whole bunch of other things to discuss.

And God would reply, I am the God of Your text Krumple.

sometime sun wrote:

Fair question by me, I love Scripture I would love read any that said God hated so I could at least attempt to discredit it.
So no I am not kidding.

Krumple wrote:

Killing the first born of Egypt? There is absolutely nothing to justify this except for hatred. Sure it doesn't actually use the word hatred in the text but that is the whole motivation behind the story. It is depicting god in a moment of extreme hatred.

IF this happened by Gods command, big If, God may once have hated?
but no more, God is now complete.

sometime sun wrote:

Agreed God has only one emotion or none.

Krumple wrote:

One? Which one?

It is either Love or Contentment, but I dont really think either is an emotion, I'm probably wrong.
sometime sun wrote:

I will do the first one for you, I don't have the time to do them all.
What other things could there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things could there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things should there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God could exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God should exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
What other things would there be God would exist? Good or bad things or good or bad God?
See how I question Gods ability and omniscients, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, his morality and a few other things I think you are capable of finding for yourself?

Krumple wrote:

There are so many things, I don't even have the time to bring them up, and I don't even think I should begin to start answering this because then it would seem like I am weighting them on importance but no, they would just be possibilities.

Possibilities one day we will get into I hope?
I was really looking forward to you on this. (sad sun)
sometime sun wrote:

There is a bit more to this line than I can be bothered with explaining, try and figure it out your self and see if there is not one question of mine or conclusion of mine that combines them all.
I am sick of doing all the bloody work. (forced smile)

Krumple wrote:

Well the problem with could, would, should is that they really answer each other in certain ways. Because could can include should and would so why even start with could? I would drop the could, because it by default includes would and should. Sure there could be other things that do not fall into would or should but then the answer becomes almost infinity large. I mean anything you want to imagine could all into the "could" category. So why not stick with just would or should?

Now would and should, imply some kind of decision making as well, like determining motivation behind it. That is a huge mess to get into because you will either get attacked on discussion motivation or the motivation itself is something that becomes the topic instead of what you are answering behind would or should. So why not dial this one back to motivation and then later we can get into the would and should stuff once we determine motivation.

Could can have as much to do with should and would than it has nothing to do with them.
Should is the only moral of the story.
Would defeats itself before it gets started.
I want to go into this further with you,
I don't fully grasp "motivation" here???
I have no bloody time this computer is so bloody slow, I have been here for over an hour if not two.
I really want to swear.
Rain check.

sometime sun wrote:

I don't believe it is God that damns, God only knows how to save, but God is neither moral not immoral.

Krumple wrote:

See I find your response here incredibly insulting. It basically says that god has no control over your fate at all, yet he is imposing a response. Now if he never wanted or expected you to believe in Jesus then there is absolutely no way that you would be divided. But that is not the case. The whole point of Christianity is to accept Jesus and obey god's commandments. Which means there is a condition and how you respond to that condition will determine your fate. That to me is incredibly insulting. It does not mean that god cares about you at all because if it did care, it would not impose anything on you.

God has no control over damnation, that is all us by us for us, God never created damnation we did.
You know I'm not trying to insult you and I dont get what you are upset about, there is no responce, God saves everything, God loses nothing.
God has complete control over everything that has and does ever start.
Well get ready for this God is not law anylonger, God never was law really.
Again God does not decide who or what goes to hell we do, the only punishment that will ever be passed will be the judgement we make upon our selves.
Have you ever heard the term "the dead don't lie" well they dont, they cant.
We have had this conversation beofre and you did not get what I was saying, hell is a man made situation be it on earth or in the after life, it was built by man and the devil (which is also man) it houses suffering "the dead don't lie because they know the whole truth" the hell will be knowing existing the truth pain and suffering you inflicted while able to do so.
They will be relived of their pain because they will see the truth, you will know the pain because you will see the truth, it really is not any more simple than that, people are in hell now while they live, I am not so sure guilt
will play a roll because guilt is a lie, but pain is not a lie, pain is very real and very truthful so unless you are forgiven you will know the pain you have inflicted, simple as that. And I am not of the mind that Jesus can forgive me either merely with Jesus you will come to forgive.
And you don't need to feel guilty for not Believing in Jesus, you are not worng for not believing in Christ you are wrong for not believing in yourself, your inner Christ.
I don't like evangelising all that much and I must sound this way right now, but Krumple I would say your self belief and presence and goodness will get you any number of blisses and joys your heart is true enough to need. You may not get it now but you will when you know the truth and know no lies.
Heck who am I to say you don't already have it, heaven can be on earth as well you know. all I know is I don't cant or wont have it, but one day I will, and what ever hell I must suffer to gain my heaven I am going to do.
I hope you know I condemn no one to hell, I cant, no one can but themselves.,
Krumple wrote:

To put it another way, it would be like your parent asking you to to do something and if you did it, it would reward you with something nice, but if you don't, then it is going to abandon you. The parent isn't showing any respect for the child at all, it is only concerned with the "task" it is presenting to you. You can not tell me that the parent cares yet is giving the child this ultimatum.

Sadly I can not be the one to carry anyone to heaven either except as the rule I live by "forgive them all as swiftly as possible, they will have a hard enough time doing it for them selves ".

sometime sun wrote:

Is there anything that God could exist? But does or doesn't?

Krumple wrote:

Sure, there could be many things.

That's where you are supposed to inspect a little more or perhaps, Oh I don't know, tell me what those many things could be.
Don't think just because you responded you answered anything.[/quote]
Krumple wrote:

No, because to leave out favoritism I will avoid answering because there are certain things that might be important to me, but other things that are just as important that would get missed. So to prevent them being overlooked I refuse to answer.

That is your complete right, but you should know teasing someone by saying you have an answer and then not giving it is being a think tease. (sun smile)

sometime sun wrote:


What does would imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

Dont quite get it ????

sometime sun wrote:

What does should imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

Still little go???

sometime sun wrote:

What does could imply?

Krumple wrote:

Infinite possibility.

I agree with this,
but could also mean infinate impossibility

sometime sun wrote:

If you are going to rush you are going to miss something.
Now whether you are invested or interested enough to take some time is up to you, but before you say something does not make sense or is the same please at least spend more than five minutes and try to appreciate if there is a sense or difference or another possible way of looking at things

Krumple wrote:

Like I mentioned previously. It would be far better to discus motivation. Because within motivation it would help you to answer the could, would and should questions.

We must make a point ot do this tomorrow or latest day after.

sometime sun wrote:

Please before you tell people that you cant see why not ask what it is you are looking at.

Krumple wrote:

Na, I already understand what you are looking at. So I approach from a different angle.

How can you say you understand what I am looking at when I would never dare say the same about you?

All my best, this has taken me far to long.

I hate my computer, is it this site? doe sit always go so swearing swearing swearing slow?
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 05:44 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun wrote:
"Hate comes from desires not being met" just does not seem like total disclosure. Yet, I'll give it some time.


It's not really about unfulfilled desire. It is expecting something to be a certain way in which it is not. Refusing to accept reality for what it actually is.

Krumple wrote:

A figment of the imagination.


sometime sun wrote:

If anything it is a 'fragment' of the imagination


Even you are a figment of your imagination. Self cognition is the root of everyone's problem. But people don't like to realize that. They are attached to their identity and their self is the only thing they know and along with that comes the fear of losing it. What will happen to my self in the future? They panic and worry, but then these thoughts of after life and god comfort those thoughts. People are so afraid of losing themselves they would rather pretend and make up a whole lot of things instead. I say face reality and all your problems will solve themselves. But I guess that is too hard to do for some.

sometime sun wrote:

Even if I agreed with you that God has imagination........scrub that,
I totally agree you.
This answer is true for both a believer and non believer.
God is with total imagination and is totally without it


You are like a person who sees the reflection of the moon in a puddle of water and mistakes the reflection for the actual moon.

Krumple wrote:

Which is why I find it incredibly low and one sign of people who hate is ignorance. They do not see that the object of their hatred is really themselves refusing to accept that there will be things that do not go, or will not be the way in which you want them to be. People who accept this common fact rarely ever hate anything what so ever. Not even the really horrible stuff, because they understand that really horrible things will happen at some point and there is nothing you can do about it. Accepting that fact does not mean that you agree with it or allow it to happen, it just means you acknowledge reality.

So if people say, god hates sin, well then god is not worthy of being called a god then. Because that is just ignorant.


sometime sun wrote:

I Acknowledge this reality and move one step closer to agreeing with your description of hate.
What really bugs me is people who's desire is expected to be unfulfilled, some people just worship and love hate to much for them even to feign ignorance.
What you describe dissolves both pessimism and optimism alike.


Well really they are both the same thing, just like good and bad. Pessimists are just optimistic about something negative. But we don't look at it like that, so we say it is better to be optimistic only because someone who is considered an optimist is hopeful but the pessimist is really just hopeful that something bad or wrong or negative is going to be the result instead of something positive. There is no difference between them.

sometime sun wrote:

I respect this ideal even if I think you would have to God Its self to pull it off I have told you I think you are God before haven't I Krumple?


Then I am imaginary.

sometime sun wrote:

Don't worry I think I am as well if you think I am playing favourites.


I can see what you mean, i understand what you are saying but it doesn't really do anything for me.

I mean the way I view humanity is not of one of evil. I don't think there are any evil people in the world at all. We all have a curse, that curse is a lack of contentment. It is our method of trying to obtain contentment that causes us to act in "good" or "bad" ways. The same is true for "good" people it's just we like to play favorites and praise the "good" person and destroy the "bad" person when in fact they are the same person.

I find it strange how they will make shows about serial killers and talk about how "cruel" and "cold-hearted" and "evil" they are but then change the channel and you see the president talking about how the troops are doing in Afghanistan. What difference does it make if a single person kills a bunch of people or the president commander in chief is killing thousands? Who is the serial killer here?


sometime sun wrote:

But I suppose what I must be saying with this is that hate is not ignorance or an awareness. I suppose what I could be saying also is that hate does not really exist?


Hate does not exist of itself. It is a conditional arising that relies on certain elements to be present in the mind. If those elements are not in the mind then hatred can not arise. It is as simple as that. If you know what those elements are, you can actually cause those elements to not arise as well. In the future you will never hate if those elements are missing. It isn't about suppression it is about uprooting the cause of hatred which is nothing more than ignorance.

sometime sun wrote:

Please expand on ignorance being where hate comes form or goes toward.
Please expand on ignorance.


In some ways hatred is just a very strong dislike of something. Generally that dislike has some kind of condition as to why you are disliking it so much. The reason is typically unfounded, meaning you are probably projecting more onto the thing that you dislike than what is really there. That is why it is not accepting reality. If you just take a step back and allow the thing that you hate to be what it is, you can actually start to notice the traits that you are disliking. When you analyze those traits, really break them down, you will notice that they too are often unfounded. But since you never took the time to reduce hatred down to it's bits, it means you are unjust for the feeling, which is nothing more than ignoring the intelligence.

Ignorance is just not seeing reality for what it actually is. Some people will try to justify their hatred, but in most cases if they still have hatred they have not gone far enough with in their analysis. They want their hatred so they don't bother to try to solve it. I say it is possible to solve every kind of hatred if you know what to do. It's just a matter of reasoning it out.

Ignorance is just that simple. It is refusing to see reality or accept reality.

sometime sun wrote:

But I do believe that God hating sin could be a contradiction and possibly a conflict of interest?
Hmmm you got me thinking now Krumple.
Is God free to sin?
Does God choose not to sin?
Is God the only true sinner or sinless?
Is God sin?
Can one exist without the other?
Full mark dear sir, I think I'm having a break through?


I don't think it's going to solve much to ask these questions. Most theists would never entertain them and anyone who is not a theist the questions don't mean anything. I personally don't think anything is a sin at all. Do I know what is right and what is wrong? I don't, I just assume, and people will tell me because they enjoy telling others what they should or should not be doing. How they know, baffles me, but I think they are making it up too, it's just I acknowledge that I am doing, but they pretend as if they know.

sometime sun wrote:

You see although I ma unsure about your description of hate,
I must declare I do not think God can see the future.

Krumple wrote:

If god can not see the future, then god can not be omniscient. However; I applaud you with your perspective even though I bet a huge majority of theists would not agree with you on this. The reason I applaud you is because your perspective holds true to the biblical account. Anyone who disagrees then is saying the biblical account is not accurate. They then can not claim they believe the bible is errant and also at the same time hold the notion that god can see the future. Both can not be true.


sometime sun wrote:

What biblical account are you speaking of for those who may have missed it??


Isaiah 42.9

sometime sun wrote:

But I also accept that a lot of the bible is misrepresented and confused therefore is not telling a whole truth which might as well be called lie, If I were allowed to say the bible has lies in it that is and I am mainly if not totally referring to just the old Testament.


The bible means nothing to me. I see it as a work of people who believed they were inspired by god, a god in which they admired. One that was brutal and wrathful and they respected such a god. However; I don't admire a god that would kill or help humans to kill. I don't admire a god that would punish or condemn for not believing or even allow a being to be condemned for not believing or following. It is petty and small minded. Destroying humans because it does not like how they behave is not admirable to me in any way. Humans only act how they do because they do not know the best way to obtain contentment. Religion does not supply that solution either, if it did everyone would be religious. Sure religion tries to claim that it does, but it is obvious that it does not. The solution of contentment is not contained within religion and that is a fact. I know because if anyone, I have looked because I know what it is I am searching for.

sometime sun wrote:

I am a Gospel man.
I cant even remember how I found this truth God does not read tarot and loves playing dice, shame on me.


The biblical accounts do not coincide with a god that knows the future though, simply because of the way it reacts to situations or events. A god that will harden a heart of a pharaoh to use him in a plot does not sound like a god that supports free will or free choice. A god that will play a game with the devil to test a persons faith by torturing him is not a being I would admire, not even in the least. It is disgusting. But the people of the past admired and loved gods who were vindictive and brutal who demanded respect and would smite anything and everything for any reason. I however do not find it admirable at all.

sometime sun wrote:

God can read probability better than anything but God cannot tell your fortune.

Krumple wrote:

Kind of puts a damper on the who prophecy and prophet doesn't it?


sometime sun wrote:

Now this is interesting because I happen to think mortals can seer the future.
God cant but man may be able to.?
In fact I am pretty certain of it.


I'm pretty certain they can't or else you would see headlines like.

"Psychic wins lottery"

or

"Psychic chains them self up claiming devastating earthquake about to strike Haiti"

or

"Man claimed to be psychic says Palestinian Muslims are going to fly two planes into the World Trade Center buildings and another will crash before crashing into the pentagon."

Now I tell you, if there were any psychics who did know these events, they should be locked up for not trying to stop, prevent or warn people about it. I don't mean they just causally mentioned it to someone, I mean going out of their way to show up at the air port and physically try to prevent the actions from happening. If they sat in their office watching on TV and saying, "Hmm yeah I was right again." They should be held accountable.

sometime sun wrote:

So if I were to agree with your description of hate I would have to also concede God is possibly able to hate.

Krumple wrote:

Yes, but to continue with this, then in my opinion god would not be worthy of the title, god, if it is subject to hatred.


sometime sun wrote:

I agree,
unless as eluded to previously the next evolution of God is for God to sin?
I heavily doubt this but my twisted logic demanded I put it down.
Or possibly hate is actually natural and not the bad thing we judge it for?
I heavily doubt this also but again my damned logic.


How come you are not putting down that god is just an illusion? Doesn't logic demand that possibility?

sometime sun wrote:

I still believe because It is God It cant hate,
but if I agreed God were solely a man and a man's hate only arose when their desires failed them I would have to agree with you God could possibly sometime hate.

Krumple wrote:

Well see that is the problem with trying to personify a god notion. But I find it incredibly contradictory that someone will say;

"God is not a person, you can not attribute humanistic qualities to god."

but then turn around and say;

"God is all loving."

Both of those statements can not be true. You can't strip away human qualities and then only give back the ones you want because you want certain ones to be true to god. It is absurd reasoning from my perspective because in my opinion love is conditional. It has to be. You can't just have spontaneous love arising without any cause, it just does not happen. Yet people don't think that far or analyze what they are claiming, they just say it because they have heard it a million times and leave it at that.


sometime sun wrote:

Love may not be human in nature or origin.?


Not from my perspective. I know people admire it, but from how I see it, it is really nothing special at all. I think people ignore the draw backs of it. It divides people, makes people bitter and then those who worry about losing it. It just is not as admirable to me as others see it. To me it is fickle and when it disappears it usually causes lots of problems.

sometime sun wrote:

Love may be supernatural?


If it is, it doesn't change the fact that it is, in my opinion, still conditional and problematic.

sometime sun wrote:

And maybe the only way to humanise love is to have hate there in the mix?
Maybe the conditional thing is hate?


Both are conditional.

sometime sun wrote:

Maybe we have yet to discover what hate really is and is for?


It's not useful for anything in my opinion.

sometime sun wrote:

I agree human love must be conditional if not at the start then definitely as any lasting standard,
who knows maybe unconditional love is purest hate?


I don't see how unconditional love an ever actually exist. To me it is just one of those things that people talk about, because they like the concept and believe the concept is real or they are in love with the idea of unconditional love.

sometime sun wrote:

Still not convinced though.

Krumple wrote:

I think the problem is, you want god to be a certain way. Now that you are analyzing it, you are discovering that your old notion simply contradicts itself so in spite of your new perspective you are refusing to accept it. You want or need god to be a certain way and anything that conflicts with that you will dismiss on principle.


sometime sun wrote:

My wants of God I could not care less about.
My need of God on the other hand is something quite simple;
You better know better than me, and You better know me better.
I am sure I could come up with more but I think that says enough for one day.


I see this as adding extra ingredients into a mixture that does not require those ingredients. In fact I would go as far as to say adding it in actually spoils the mixture.


sometime sun wrote:

I just agreed with your potentiality unless you are speaking of another situation or potential other than God not being able to see the future.

Krumple wrote:

If god exists, it could potentially be subject to hate, if it is having expectations which are not being met. However; it would not qualify to be a god if it has expectations.


sometime sun wrote:

Are hopes expectations?


Yep.

sometime sun wrote:

I think these words are starting to sink in more, I still know there is a fundamental piece I am missing because I am starting to feel your words.
God has no idea what to expect.
God does not expect the unexpected.
I still think God does expect something but does not know what it is to expect.
But God does not guess,
And even if God is the best at predicting anything there ever was and is and will ever be, God does not do such things.
I have no rational what so ever as to why God would do such a thing
And certainly since God completion with the addition of Child making the trilogy, I mean Trinity, I really think God thinks there is nothing left even to hope for us.
It makes no sense, if God rules all things known and knowable and has my explanation and solvency I can only wonder what it is God would have trouble expecting from anything other than knowing and in possession of complete truth.
If you have the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth what is there to expect what you don't know already?
He found what He was looking for He needs not expect a single thing more from us.


Well that's a problem, maybe not for god, but for us if we are the product. Adding an ultimatum to me or face damnation is something that god would have already figured out that a huge portion would not accept. It is simple statistical math, and no matter what you did, those numbers would be unsolvable. Unless you never make them chose anything. If you make it so it does not matter what they do at all, then there is no problem. But there is not a single theist that ever says that is how things are.

sometime sun wrote:

if not what scenario leads you to say "potentially yes"?

Krumple wrote:

Well since we have the ability to have hatred arise, then it's not so far fetched that a god could also have the ability. However; hatred is a very petty emotion and based in ignorance. So I would assume that a god would not have ignorance, so it could never really reach the point of hatred. However; love is also based in ignorance as well, but people will refuse to accept that so I tend to lean away from making statements like that.


sometime sun wrote:

You see I think petty may be the wrong word.
Exactly my point from before.
Somethings such as love are all knowing and yet know nothing knowing at the same time.


Love to me isn't knowing, it is just an expression of acceptance. The condition needs to be there fore the acceptance to occur though.

sometime sun wrote:

You also believe God does not know the outcome of all?

Krumple wrote:

Well, a god could technically know the out come of all things. But that is where the problem comes up. If it knew the out come of all things then getting mad, upset, angry or disappointed is incredibly silly.


sometime sun wrote:

God knows what God needs to know.
And what God needs to know is the only thing worth knowing.


I guess but it does not do anything for me.

sometime sun wrote:

How can God hate?

Krumple wrote:

It is just a response to wanting things to be a certain way.

What makes you think God responds or is responsive?[/quote]
Krumple wrote:

Just an aspect. It is possible that it doesn't react to anything at all. Completely passive to all things. It doesn't help us with these questions then because it would be even more silly if a passive god got upset or hated something then.


sometime sun wrote:

God the impassive pasifist.
God does not care It cares

but you may then be able to say,
God cares It does not care?


Just more nonsensical statements, I don't know how to respond to them.

sometime sun wrote:

What makes you think God is not "cool" with what ever happens?

Krumple wrote:

If god were "cool" with everything then this is the kind of god I could respect.

Here is a little scenario I would like to add to this.

Let's say after I die, I come before some god. This god asks me some questions about my life. Asks me why I did not believe in it's existence. I would have some questions of my own.

From my perspective I can not bring myself to respect any being that would justify the killing or murder of another being simply because it did not follow certain line of thinking. I deplore any god that would support or suggest that it's followers torture or even injure those who are not accepting of their beliefs. So I would have to ask, "Are you the god that is of the Christian text or Muslim text?"

If that god answers yes, then I would not respect, admire or adhere to anything it had to say after that. I don't care what it would do to me after that, but I would want or have nothing to do with it from that point on. I don't care what it would have to say as it's defense. Destroy me, send me away, what ever, it would not matter, but for me to be in it's presence is more than what it would deserve.

If it says no, then we have a whole bunch of other things to discuss.


sometime sun wrote:

And God would reply, I am the God of Your text Krumple.


Then that god does not exist. I have no need for one, it does not do anything for me at all. I am perfectly fine without one. There is absolutely nothing that could happen to me that I would need one for.

sometime sun wrote:

Fair question by me, I love Scripture I would love read any that said God hated so I could at least attempt to discredit it.
So no I am not kidding.

Krumple wrote:

Killing the first born of Egypt? There is absolutely nothing to justify this except for hatred. Sure it doesn't actually use the word hatred in the text but that is the whole motivation behind the story. It is depicting god in a moment of extreme hatred.


sometime sun wrote:

IF this happened by Gods command, big If, God may once have hated?
but no more, God is now complete.


You justify it with a comment like that? It's okay that a serial killer killed now that it has learned it's lesson with imprisonment. Seriously?

sometime sun wrote:

Agreed God has only one emotion or none.

Krumple wrote:

One? Which one?


sometime sun wrote:

It is either Love or Contentment, but I dont really think either is an emotion, I'm probably wrong.


Both are in my opinion.


Krumple wrote:

There are so many things, I don't even have the time to bring them up, and I don't even think I should begin to start answering this because then it would seem like I am weighting them on importance but no, they would just be possibilities.


sometime sun wrote:

Possibilities one day we will get into I hope?
I was really looking forward to you on this. (sad sun)


sometime sun wrote:

Could can have as much to do with should and would than it has nothing to do with them.
Should is the only moral of the story.
Would defeats itself before it gets started.
I want to go into this further with you,
I don't fully grasp "motivation" here???
I have no bloody time this computer is so bloody slow, I have been here for over an hour if not two.
I really want to swear.
Rain check.


Well motivation is everything. You can determine a lot of things behind motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

I don't believe it is God that damns, God only knows how to save, but God is neither moral not immoral.

Krumple wrote:

See I find your response here incredibly insulting. It basically says that god has no control over your fate at all, yet he is imposing a response. Now if he never wanted or expected you to believe in Jesus then there is absolutely no way that you would be divided. But that is not the case. The whole point of Christianity is to accept Jesus and obey god's commandments. Which means there is a condition and how you respond to that condition will determine your fate. That to me is incredibly insulting. It does not mean that god cares about you at all because if it did care, it would not impose anything on you.


sometime sun wrote:

God has no control over damnation, that is all us by us for us, God never created damnation we did.


This does not make any sense to me. What causes you to be damned then? Someone had to determine the result and execute the result, it can't be you who determines it, because that doesn't make any sense. It would be like, I determine the speed limit yet I get fined for going over the speed limit? It can't work that way.

sometime sun wrote:

Have you ever heard the term "the dead don't lie" well they don't, they cant.


The dead don't do anything at all.

sometime sun wrote:

We have had this conversation before and you did not get what I was saying, hell is a man made situation be it on earth or in the after life, it was built by man and the devil (which is also man) it houses suffering "the dead don't lie because they know the whole truth" the hell will be knowing existing the truth pain and suffering you inflicted while able to do so.


How? Pain is only a signal sent to the brain when a nerve is triggered. You mean to tell me your soul has a nervous system? That is counter intuitive. Why would the soul have a nervous system? If I was just a disembodied mind then what is causing the pain? Some visions, some remorse? Being fed experiencing of other people? That does nothing. You feel someone else pain? So you will what? Sympathize and regret your actions? That is silly.

The ONLY reason people hurt each other is because they are trying to obtain happiness. It is why I can forgive everyone and anyone because they are just like me, cursed with lacking contentment. If people knew the best solution but chose to use another method because they would rather cause harm then and only then would I consider it truly evil. However; no one, absolutely no one knows the best solution, so you can't accuse anyone of being evil. Anyone who does, is flat wrong.

sometime sun wrote:

They will be relived of their pain because they will see the truth, you will know the pain because you will see the truth, it really is not any more simple than that, people are in hell now while they live, I am not so sure guilt
will play a roll because guilt is a lie, but pain is not a lie, pain is very real and very truthful so unless you are forgiven you will know the pain you have inflicted, simple as that.


I won't ever feel guilty, because I have never felt guilty over anything I have ever done. I know I have caused hurt on others but I don't feel guilty about it. It is not my fault, it is the fault of ignorance. If I knew the best solution, I would take it, but I don't know the best solution so I make mistakes. I don't feel guilty about that. It is not my fault. Force me to experience their perspective, my position still stands.

sometime sun wrote:

And I am not of the mind that Jesus can forgive me either merely with Jesus you will come to forgive.


See most people find this incredibly difficult to do. I fine it incredibly easy to forgive. Because of my out look. As I have mentioned before, it is this curse of contentment which is the root to our problems. I don't ever blame the person, I see the fault in the curse itself. That gives me the ability to look beyond what they have ever done and see them as a person just like me, who is blind and randomly struggling to find happiness any way they can.

sometime sun wrote:

And you don't need to feel guilty for not Believing in Jesus, you are not worng for not believing in Christ you are wrong for not believing in yourself, your inner Christ.


I have no need for twisting it like that. But you are wrong about me not believing in myself. I don't have a self, it is an illusion that will fade into oblivion. I am perfectly fine with that too. I neither want to nor need to live for ever. It would cheapen this existence if i did live for ever.

sometime sun wrote:

I don't like evangelising all that much and I must sound this way right now, but Krumple I would say your self belief and presence and goodness will get you any number of blisses and joys your heart is true enough to need.


No, the self is nothing more than a source of torment. It is transcending the need to feel the self requires something is the only place you can be free.

sometime sun wrote:

You may not get it now but you will when you know the truth and know no lies.


The truth is, god does not exist.

sometime sun wrote:

Heck who am I to say you don't already have it, heaven can be on earth as well you know. all I know is I don't cant or wont have it, but one day I will, and what ever hell I must suffer to gain my heaven I am going to do.


I guess when you get nothing, you won't know it so it might as well be heaven.

sometime sun wrote:

I hope you know I condemn no one to hell, I cant, no one can but themselves.,


And I say if a god allowed someone to condemn themselves then it is not worthy of praise, worship or even being labeled as god.

Krumple wrote:

To put it another way, it would be like your parent asking you to to do something and if you did it, it would reward you with something nice, but if you don't, then it is going to abandon you. The parent isn't showing any respect for the child at all, it is only concerned with the "task" it is presenting to you. You can not tell me that the parent cares yet is giving the child this ultimatum.

sometime sun wrote:

Sadly I can not be the one to carry anyone to heaven either except as the rule I live by "forgive them all as swiftly as possible, they will have a hard enough time doing it for them selves ".


Like I said, I have absolutely no problem or difficulty forgiving anyone and everyone. It doesn't matter what they have done.

sometime sun wrote:

That's where you are supposed to inspect a little more or perhaps, Oh I don't know, tell me what those many things could be.
Don't think just because you responded you answered anything.

Krumple wrote:

No, because to leave out favoritism I will avoid answering because there are certain things that might be important to me, but other things that are just as important that would get missed. So to prevent them being overlooked I refuse to answer.


sometime sun wrote:

That is your complete right, but you should know teasing someone by saying you have an answer and then not giving it is being a think tease. (sun smile)


Most do not like my answers so I don't always give them.

sometime sun wrote:

What does would imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

Dont quite get it ????


sometime sun wrote:

What does should imply?

Krumple wrote:

Motivation.

sometime sun wrote:

Still little go???


sometime sun wrote:

What does could imply?

Krumple wrote:

Infinite possibility.

sometime sun wrote:

I agree with this,
but could also mean infinate impossibility


sometime sun wrote:

If you are going to rush you are going to miss something.


Na...

sometime sun wrote:

Now whether you are invested or interested enough to take some time is up to you, but before you say something does not make sense or is the same please at least spend more than five minutes and try to appreciate if there is a sense or difference or another possible way of looking at things

Krumple wrote:

Like I mentioned previously. It would be far better to discus motivation. Because within motivation it would help you to answer the could, would and should questions.

sometime sun wrote:

We must make a point to do this tomorrow or latest day after.


You won't like it.

sometime sun wrote:

Please before you tell people that you cant see why not ask what it is you are looking at.

Krumple wrote:

Na, I already understand what you are looking at. So I approach from a different angle.

sometime sun wrote:

How can you say you understand what I am looking at when I would never dare say the same about you?


You don't really care about any of this, your mind is made, you are just playing along. So do you still think I do not know?
salima
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 05:46 am
hi sometime-
i used to have some ideas on this, if i can drag them out again...

one is:
that hate is a destructive force. it not only kills everything it comes into contact with, it consumes the host from the inside out like a cancer. so if god had as much hate in him as would have to be for all the things he is accused of hating-or even one of them, for example sinners...by now he would have burned himself to ashes and no longer exist. so if you believe in a god, he cant possibly hate.

the other is confused:
if we can have hate, and god cannot-doesnt that make us the superior being? is god not supposed to be a totality, and if god created us he created hate, then he would have not only had some but wanted to keep it going. this is not really very believable or acceptable to anyone.

the third is purely speculative and anthropomorphical:
hate is a negative value, rather the absence of something. in fact, i think hate can be a product of fear, and fear is the absence of love. furthermore, it is a phenomenon of the physical plane, and god has no physicality other than through us. so he must be able to sense and experience the hate, and it would make him very uncomfortable and he would want to try and balance it by returning signals back to physicality through us to behave oppositely.

but i dont think it is really anthropomorphicalizing to believe that hate would make god uncomfortable since it is a destructive element or destructive lack.

i know where you are going with this...dont worry, it isnt like that
salima
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 08:13 am
@sometime sun,
Hi SS. I suppose that if god wanted to be irrational, god could indulge in human emotion.
jcboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 12:44 pm
Since the bible is full of rape and murder I suppose you could say god is a hater.
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 01:29 pm
I'm just adding this to get the next page quicker.
My computer is slow and I think it has something to do with the length of the post.
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2010 03:42 pm
@Krumple,

sometime sun wrote:
"Hate comes from desires not being met" just does not seem like total disclosure. Yet, I'll give it some time.

Krumple wrote:

It's not really about unfulfilled desire. It is expecting something to be a certain way in which it is not. Refusing to accept reality for what it actually is.

Expectancy is not a desire?
But I see clearer with "refusal" in the mix.


Krumple wrote:

A figment of the imagination.


sometime sun wrote:

If anything it is a 'fragment' of the imagination

Krumple wrote:

Even you are a figment of your imagination. Self cognition is the root of everyone's problem. But people don't like to realize that. They are attached to their identity and their self is the only thing they know and along with that comes the fear of losing it. What will happen to my self in the future? They panic and worry, but then these thoughts of after life and god comfort those thoughts. People are so afraid of losing themselves they would rather pretend and make up a whole lot of things instead. I say face reality and all your problems will solve themselves. But I guess that is too hard to do for some.

Way to hard.
But the fact it may be easier may also prove something.
I have been known often to not be able to distinguish between my imagination and my "reality"

sometime sun wrote:

Even if I agreed with you that God has imagination........scrub that,
I totally agree you.
This answer is true for both a believer and non believer.
God is with total imagination and is totally without it

Krumple wrote:

You are like a person who sees the reflection of the moon in a puddle of water and mistakes the reflection for the actual moon.

That is a fantastic analogy.
Double reflector.
Split personality? (smile)


sometime sun wrote:

I respect this ideal even if I think you would have to God Its self to pull it off I have told you I think you are God before haven't I Krumple?

Krumple wrote:

Then I am imaginary.

Of course you are, so am I.

sometime sun wrote:

Don't worry I think I am as well if you think I am playing favourites.

Krumple wrote:

I can see what you mean, i understand what you are saying but it doesn't really do anything for me.

I mean the way I view humanity is not of one of evil. I don't think there are any evil people in the world at all. We all have a curse, that curse is a lack of contentment. It is our method of trying to obtain contentment that causes us to act in "good" or "bad" ways. The same is true for "good" people it's just we like to play favorites and praise the "good" person and destroy the "bad" person when in fact they are the same person.

I find it strange how they will make shows about serial killers and talk about how "cruel" and "cold-hearted" and "evil" they are but then change the channel and you see the president talking about how the troops are doing in Afghanistan. What difference does it make if a single person kills a bunch of people or the president commander in chief is killing thousands? Who is the serial killer here?

I do not believe in evil.
Oh my "that curse is the lack of contentment" so true, so absolutely true. My bliss would be to be contented, I don't think I ever will, but I do worship it.

Bit of a leap second but on face value you are correct.
I cant stand serial killer shows, even Dexter got tired quick.


sometime sun wrote:

But I suppose what I must be saying with this is that hate is not ignorance or an awareness. I suppose what I could be saying also is that hate does not really exist?

Krumple wrote:

Hate does not exist of itself. It is a conditional arising that relies on certain elements to be present in the mind. If those elements are not in the mind then hatred can not arise. It is as simple as that. If you know what those elements are, you can actually cause those elements to not arise as well. In the future you will never hate if those elements are missing. It isn't about suppression it is about uprooting the cause of hatred which is nothing more than ignorance.

I believe with all of of this but still in some doubt about the seat of all hate being ignorance.

sometime sun wrote:

Please expand on ignorance being where hate comes form or goes toward.
Please expand on ignorance.

Krumple wrote:

In some ways hatred is just a very strong dislike of something. Generally that dislike has some kind of condition as to why you are disliking it so much. The reason is typically unfounded, meaning you are probably projecting more onto the thing that you dislike than what is really there. That is why it is not accepting reality. If you just take a step back and allow the thing that you hate to be what it is, you can actually start to notice the traits that you are disliking. When you analyze those traits, really break them down, you will notice that they too are often unfounded. But since you never took the time to reduce hatred down to it's bits, it means you are unjust for the feeling, which is nothing more than ignoring the intelligence.

Ah now I see better.
So you could also say hatred is avoidance.

Krumple wrote:

Ignorance is just not seeing reality for what it actually is. Some people will try to justify their hatred, but in most cases if they still have hatred they have not gone far enough with in their analysis. They want their hatred so they don't bother to try to solve it. I say it is possible to solve every kind of hatred if you know what to do. It's just a matter of reasoning it out.

Ignorance is just that simple. It is refusing to see reality or accept reality.

I still don't think pure ignorance is refusal of acceptance.
True ignorance is blind, but then I may be talking about the fool so you may be entirely correct.
Will give it some thought.

sometime sun wrote:

But I do believe that God hating sin could be a contradiction and possibly a conflict of interest?
Hmmm you got me thinking now Krumple.
Is God free to sin?
Does God choose not to sin?
Is God the only true sinner or sinless?
Is God sin?
Can one exist without the other?
Full mark dear sir, I think I'm having a break through?

Krumple wrote:

I don't think it's going to solve much to ask these questions. Most theists would never entertain them and anyone who is not a theist the questions don't mean anything. I personally don't think anything is a sin at all. Do I know what is right and what is wrong? I don't, I just assume, and people will tell me because they enjoy telling others what they should or should not be doing. How they know, baffles me, but I think they are making it up too, it's just I acknowledge that I am doing, but they pretend as if they know.

Assumptions of truth.
Does the question actually assume anything? apart from the fact there may be an answer?
I only pretend for myself, I would not and could not do it for another.
I am barely finding enough strength to convince myself.

sometime sun wrote:

What biblical account are you speaking of for those who may have missed it??

Krumple wrote:

Isaiah 42.9

I will open a thread on this when I am caught up.
sometime sun wrote:

But I also accept that a lot of the bible is misrepresented and confused therefore is not telling a whole truth which might as well be called lie, If I were allowed to say the bible has lies in it that is and I am mainly if not totally referring to just the old Testament.

Krumple wrote:

The bible means nothing to me. I see it as a work of people who believed they were inspired by god, a god in which they admired. One that was brutal and wrathful and they respected such a god. However; I don't admire a god that would kill or help humans to kill. I don't admire a god that would punish or condemn for not believing or even allow a being to be condemned for not believing or following. It is petty and small minded. Destroying humans because it does not like how they behave is not admirable to me in any way. Humans only act how they do because they do not know the best way to obtain contentment. Religion does not supply that solution either, if it did everyone would be religious. Sure religion tries to claim that it does, but it is obvious that it does not. The solution of contentment is not contained within religion and that is a fact. I know because if anyone, I have looked because I know what it is I am searching for.

When was is the respect turned from a fear into a love?
I really cannot fathom God killing or telling people to kill this is maniacal.
But there is a lesson in any form of death, and sometimes the life is worth the lesson.
God does not destroy humans, I don't even think He can.
Location Location Location, Contentment Contentment Contentment.
You really do not think contentment is not to be found in religion?
Please prove this fact to me, urgently.


sometime sun wrote:

I am a Gospel man.
I cant even remember how I found this truth God does not read tarot and loves playing dice, shame on me.

Krumple wrote:

The biblical accounts do not coincide with a god that knows the future though, simply because of the way it reacts to situations or events. A god that will harden a heart of a pharaoh to use him in a plot does not sound like a god that supports free will or free choice. A god that will play a game with the devil to test a persons faith by torturing him is not a being I would admire, not even in the least. It is disgusting. But the people of the past admired and loved gods who were vindictive and brutal who demanded respect and would smite anything and everything for any reason. I however do not find it admirable at all.

No not admirable.
This is all trueish.

sometime sun wrote:

Now this is interesting because I happen to think mortals can seer the future.
God cant but man may be able to.?
In fact I am pretty certain of it.

Krumple wrote:

I'm pretty certain they can't or else you would see headlines like.

"Psychic wins lottery"

or

"Psychic chains them self up claiming devastating earthquake about to strike Haiti"

or

"Man claimed to be psychic says Palestinian Muslims are going to fly two planes into the World Trade Center buildings and another will crash before crashing into the pentagon."

Now I tell you, if there were any psychics who did know these events, they should be locked up for not trying to stop, prevent or warn people about it. I don't mean they just causally mentioned it to someone, I mean going out of their way to show up at the air port and physically try to prevent the actions from happening. If they sat in their office watching on TV and saying, "Hmm yeah I was right again." They should be held accountable.

I think the whole psychic lottery analogy has been done to death.
People who seer the future are usually crazy, the don't usually buy lottery tickets or even try to be believed by other people.
I could go on about this but it it is boring for me tonight so cant really be bothered.
Sorry some other time.

sometime sun wrote:

I agree,
unless as eluded to previously the next evolution of God is for God to sin?
I heavily doubt this but my twisted logic demanded I put it down.
Or possibly hate is actually natural and not the bad thing we judge it for?
I heavily doubt this also but again my damned logic.

Krumple wrote:

How come you are not putting down that god is just an illusion? Doesn't logic demand that possibility?

I said damned logic and twisted logic (smile)
If God had not been proved to me I might consider it.

sometime sun wrote:

Love may not be human in nature or origin.?

Krumple wrote:

Not from my perspective. I know people admire it, but from how I see it, it is really nothing special at all. I think people ignore the draw backs of it. It divides people, makes people bitter and then those who worry about losing it. It just is not as admirable to me as others see it. To me it is fickle and when it disappears it usually causes lots of problems.

No one has ever shown me ideal love, some days I am sad about this some days it pisses me off soem days I am glad.
I would not get half as much done as I would like for a start.
Agree with this, but I do love to love any chance I get as it fules my work just so long as it is not ever a co-dependant love.
Do you think sex has anything to do with love?



sometime sun wrote:

Maybe we have yet to discover what hate really is and is for?

Krumple wrote:

It's not useful for anything in my opinion.

I don't think it is pleasant or preferable, but I do wonder why something would exist that has no benefit to anything?






sometime sun wrote:

I think these words are starting to sink in more, I still know there is a fundamental piece I am missing because I am starting to feel your words.
God has no idea what to expect.
God does not expect the unexpected.
I still think God does expect something but does not know what it is to expect.
But God does not guess,
And even if God is the best at predicting anything there ever was and is and will ever be, God does not do such things.
I have no rational what so ever as to why God would do such a thing
And certainly since God completion with the addition of Child making the trilogy, I mean Trinity, I really think God thinks there is nothing left even to hope for us.
It makes no sense, if God rules all things known and knowable and has my explanation and solvency I can only wonder what it is God would have trouble expecting from anything other than knowing and in possession of complete truth.
If you have the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth what is there to expect what you don't know already?
He found what He was looking for He needs not expect a single thing more from us.

Krumple wrote:

Well that's a problem, maybe not for god, but for us if we are the product. Adding an ultimatum to me or face damnation is something that god would have already figured out that a huge portion would not accept. It is simple statistical math, and no matter what you did, those numbers would be unsolvable. Unless you never make them chose anything. If you make it so it does not matter what they do at all, then there is no problem. But there is not a single theist that ever says that is how things are.


Would you like me to say it?


sometime sun wrote:

And God would reply, I am the God of Your text Krumple.

Krumple wrote:

Then that god does not exist. I have no need for one, it does not do anything for me at all. I am perfectly fine without one. There is absolutely nothing that could happen to me that I would need one for.

You have a strong spirit and will, I think you are great.

sometime sun wrote:

IF this happened by Gods command, big If, God may once have hated?
but no more, God is now complete.

Krumple wrote:

You justify it with a comment like that? It's okay that a serial killer killed now that it has learned it's lesson with imprisonment. Seriously?

The lesson is a freedom to be sure.
I don't justify God or serial killers thank you, I only need justify myself.


Krumple wrote:

There are so many things, I don't even have the time to bring them up, and I don't even think I should begin to start answering this because then it would seem like I am weighting them on importance but no, they would just be possibilities.



sometime sun wrote:

Could can have as much to do with should and would than it has nothing to do with them.
Should is the only moral of the story.
Would defeats itself before it gets started.
I want to go into this further with you,
I don't fully grasp "motivation" here???
I have no bloody time this computer is so bloody slow, I have been here for over an hour if not two.
I really want to swear.
Rain check.

Krumple wrote:

Well motivation is everything. You can determine a lot of things behind motivation.

I still need more form you here. Please.


sometime sun wrote:

God has no control over damnation, that is all us by us for us, God never created damnation we did.

Krumple wrote:

This does not make any sense to me. What causes you to be damned then? Someone had to determine the result and execute the result, it can't be you who determines it, because that doesn't make any sense. It would be like, I determine the speed limit yet I get fined for going over the speed limit? It can't work that way.

You and truth and full disclosed awareness is what damns you.
It is you who knows you have done wrong and you who knows you need to do right, for some this means punishment.
You are that which will fine you, a higher self a higher without self I should say determines you have broken their your law.
Not Gods law, the victims and your law.

sometime sun wrote:

Have you ever heard the term "the dead don't lie" well they don't, they cant.

Krumple wrote:

The dead don't do anything at all.

Yes the dead dont lie

Krumple this bloody computer is giving me a head ache, I and it is going to slow and my mind is wandering.
I will finish off soon or tomorrow.
Thanks for your presence.
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