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CONSIDERATION OF THE MORAL RIGHTS OF CHILDREN

 
 
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 11:13 pm

CONSIDERATION OF THE MORAL RIGHTS OF CHILDREN

It is my opinion that children have the same moral rights as adults.

ANY citizen who is held to comply with the law
has a moral right to participate in its creation or amendment, by voting at election time
n threatening politicians, to put them out of work.


Comments r invited.





David
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:29 am

For instance (qua the moral rights of children) if a child opts
to leave home, he does not thereby violate any right of his father.

He is not his dad's property.





David
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:31 am
so infants should have the vote?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:35 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:
so infants should have the vote?
Any citizen who is held to comply with the law has a moral right to join in creating it.

Some citizens might be incapable of doing so, e.g. comotose people in hospitals. If the kid can get to the polls to vote: yes.





David
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:38 am
I think your statement is a little broad or loose. At what age should they have the right to vote? Or should it be based on their understanding of the issues? Kids are not mature enough, generally speaking, to understand the entire consequences of their actions, ie. leaving home. So, I disagree with you, David. I don't think that you were a typical kid.

Do you also think they should be able to drive a car? Drink? Smoke? Go to work?

Everything in its time...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Children are not fully formed, they have neither the same rights nor the same obligation of an adult. We threat children too much like children for too long, but the original concept of childhood was good for society.
kuvasz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:11 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
It is my opinion that children have the same moral rights as adults.


And it is my opinion that the statement above could easily be used by a child molester to defend himself from his actions toward a nine year old girl because the little girl agreed to having sex with him.

You constantly forget to remember to ask the next question when you post your nonsense.
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:11 am
@OmSigDAVID,
A child who leaves home at the age of twelve may not be able to fend for himself. Where would he go? If there was abuse, would he know to go to the police? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To make every as fair as possible, children need to receive their rights at the same age, which eliminates giving a child their voting/ownership/drinking rights when they are deemed ready. Such a system would surely be corrupt at any rate. It would be a matter of who knows whose parents.
While I may not agree with every age restriction or the way many problems of youth are handled, I don't think giving children the right or responsibility to vote is the way to fix anything. Children should not have such responsibility until a certain age. From personal experience, I more than thought that I should have the right to vote at fifteen or sixteen. I was highly interested in politics and participated in campaigns, etc. Now that I am older, however, I realize that many of the judgements I made came from my parents' bias. I was passionate and emotional, and that is healthy for a teenager, but without having a few more years of life experience I could not be expected to show an adult level of reason and rationale.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:53 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
I think your statement is a little broad or loose.
At what age should they have the right to vote?
Or should it be based on their understanding of the issues?
As long as the same literacy test is applied to all voters,
so that no one gets screwed out of his right to vote.
Historically, there have been objections to literacy tests
as pre-requisites to voting on the ground that thay excluded blacks from voting.

Many adults might flunk a test qua their understanding of the issues.




Mame wrote:
Kids are not mature enough, generally speaking,
to understand the entire consequences of their actions, ie. leaving home.
That might never change.
Did we give government jurisdiction to defend us from our own poor judgment ??

I don 't think we did.



Mame wrote:
So, I disagree with you, David. I don't think that you were a typical kid.
A lot of people agree with u Mame, including my mother.





David

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:57 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Children are not fully formed, they have neither the same rights nor the same obligation of an adult.
We threat children too much like children for too long, but the original concept of childhood was good for society.
It sounds like u r referring to the statutory status quo.

As per its Title, this thread contemplates the MORAL rights of children.

What about consent of the governed ?





David
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
As per its Title, this thread contemplates the MORAL rights of children.

What about consent of the governed ?

Children have the moral right to be treated as much like an adult as they have shown the ability to handle. They do not however have the right to expect to be treated as adults. They are always charges of chaperons
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:04 am
@kuvasz,
Quote:
It is my opinion that children have the same moral rights as adults.


kuvasz wrote:
And it is my opinion that the statement above could easily be used by a child molester to defend himself
from his actions toward a nine year old girl because the little girl agreed to having sex with him.
The same way that I have no right (nor ability) to subvert YOUR rights,
so also child molesters have no right nor ability
to subvert the rights of children.

kuvasz wrote:
You constantly forget to remember to ask the next question when you post your nonsense.
Unlike yours, my mind does not reflexively venture toward sexual perversity.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
As per its Title, this thread contemplates the MORAL rights of children.

What about consent of the governed ?

hawkeye10 wrote:
Children have the moral right to be treated as much like an adult as they have shown the ability to handle.
They do not however have the right to expect to be treated as adults.
I have not made a practice of treating people differently,
on the basis of their ages. I usually treat everyone the same way,
which is to show respect and politeness.

The way u wrote your post, it sounds like u r condescendingly rude to children. I am not.






hawkeye10 wrote:
They are always charges of chaperons
Speak for yourself, Hawkeye.
Above age 8, I spent most of my time alone
when not in school.





David
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:57 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
The way u wrote your post, it sounds like u r condescendingly rude to children. I am not.
He says to the person who constantly complains that we treat children too much like little children.....
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 01:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
David wrote:
The way u wrote your post, it sounds like u r condescendingly rude to children. I am not.
hawkeye10 wrote:
He says to the person who constantly complains that we treat children too much like little children.....
I am innocent of that infraction.
I 've read SOME of your posts, Hawkeye, not ALL of them.
I did not know that; anyway, I answer 1 post at a time.





David
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 01:26 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
As a lawyer you ought to know to ask "the next question."

btw: you ought to note that by your definition a nine year old girl should be allowed to have sex with adult males IF she consents; the situation does not involve coercion. So tell us, do you condone that?

Like all Libertarians you don't think about the real world consequences of your beliefs. I consider your mental development akin to a fourteen year old boy who demands that nobody can tell him what to do. You know, a spoiled brat who thinks of no one or thing but his own personal satisfaction.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 01:40 pm
@kuvasz,
kuvasz wrote:
As a lawyer you ought to know to ask "the next question."

btw: you ought to note that by your definition a nine year old girl should be allowed to have sex with adult males IF she consents; the situation does not involve coercion. So tell us, do you condone that?

Like all Libertarians you don't think about the real world consequences of your beliefs. I consider your mental development akin to a fourteen year old boy who demands that nobody can tell him what to do. You know, a spoiled brat who thinks of no one or thing but his own personal satisfaction.
I don't think much of u either. U can trust me on that.
I might put u back on Ignore.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 09:20 pm
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:
A child who leaves home at the age of twelve may not be able to fend for himself.
Interesting that u bring that up. In 1912,
my Uncle Bill got into a quarrel with his father,
my grandfather, over proper English table manners,
whereupon Uncle Bill got thrown out of the house.
HOWEVER, he had been born in NYC, during a year 's honeymoon in 1900.
Hence, he was an American citizen by birthright.
He got on a ship. (I 'm very glad that he did not select the Titanic.)




Quote:
Where would he go?
NEW YORK.
About 15 years later, the family followed him,
in consequence whereof, I am an American not an Englishman.
I O my citizenship to that quarrel.


A Lyn Fei wrote:
If there was abuse, would he know to go to the police?
Maybe; depends on what kind n whether its legal or not.


A Lyn Fei wrote:
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To make every as fair as possible,
children need to receive their rights at the same age, which
eliminates giving a child their voting/ownership/drinking rights
when they are deemed ready.
I argue that every citizen has the right to have government leave him alone
n respect his natural autonomy.
I don 't know what u mean about "ownership"; as far as I know,
kids have the same ownership rights as anyone.
What he drinks is only HIS business (if he owns it).
Government was never invested with jd to protect us from our own
poor judgment.




A Lyn Fei wrote:
Such a system would surely be corrupt at any rate.
Then simply have government respect all citizens equally,
rendering EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS,
like it is supposed to, and not discriminate.
I don 't think that 's asking too much.







A Lyn Fei wrote:
It would be a matter of who knows whose parents.
While I may not agree with every age restriction or the way many problems of youth are handled,
I don't think giving children the right or responsibility to vote is the way to fix anything.
If children are screwed out of their natural right to vote,
then thay shoud retaliate by refusing to recognize the law,
declaring it to be only the product of bullies, and illegitimate.






A Lyn Fei wrote:
Children should not have such responsibility until a certain age.
No one has any responsibility to vote.
Its not like paying taxes.
It is a natural right of citizens, but thay are free to ignore it.




A Lyn Fei wrote:
From personal experience, I more than thought that I should have the right to vote at fifteen or sixteen. I was highly interested in politics and participated in campaigns, etc. Now that I am older, however, I realize that many of the judgements I made came from my parents' bias. I was passionate and emotional, and that is healthy for a teenager, but without having a few more years of life experience I could not be expected to show an adult level of reason and rationale.
In the future, u (and everyone else) can change your opinions many times, but that does NOT
render illegitimate your earlier right to vote.

When I see Ed Koch on TV, sometimes I wish that I had voted for him.
I voted a straight Republican, or straight Conservative ticket.
In retrospect, I wish that I 'd voted for Ed Koch for Mayor.
That does NOT deprive me of my moral nor legal right to vote in the 1970s.




David
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:09 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You are giving me one example of someone who did a great thing by leaving home. This was many years ago and we live in a different world. "Getting on a ship?" That just doesn't happen. Crossing the ocean happens by plane and takes the better part of a thousand dollars.
A child cannot own a credit card, a house, rent a hotel room, drive a car, but! I concur that the drinking age is ludicrous. By example, really, seeing as Europe has a younger drinking age and less associated problems. By logic, if children grew up without alcohol being a taboo they might actually learn to drink responsibly. Then NYS could stop spending money on those television ads that probably help no one. Drugs I happen to feel similarly about. I might add, candidly, that this is coming from a person who rarely drinks and is adamantly opposed to using drugs. So, I hear you. And I agree with some things that you say.
My argument, still, is that it cannot be one way or the other. There has to be a centrist approach.
Point taken about religion. I am not religious in any way, shape, or form and would never let the government mandate my church-going. However, EVEN RELIGION plays a part in politics. This is why FOX is able to slam Obama for not attending church enough. This is why we've never elected a Jewish or Atheist president. This is why Texas was able to change their curriculum to teach that the separation of church and state was not really the intention of our Founding Fathers.
So, even there, yes there is a Centrist view that doesn't appease everyone, but works for now and can be changed.
Would you recommend, since you recommend giving everyone equal rights, to give everyone equal punishment? My mother works for the NYS Dep't of Corrections. She sees inmates as young as 16 or 17, but would you recommend that a ten year old be given the same sentence as a 40 year old? If they have the same rights, the same responsibilities, should they have the same repercussions?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 11:23 pm
@A Lyn Fei,
A Lyn Fei wrote:
A child cannot own a credit card, a house,
rent a hotel room, drive a car, but! I concur that the drinking age is ludicrous.
U mean that if I sell my house to a kid
and give him a deed, he can 't OWN it?? Y not ?


A Lyn Fei wrote:
Point taken about religion. I am not religious in any way, shape, or form
and would never let the government mandate my church-going.
The point was not about religion; the point was about JURISDICTION, or its ABSENCE.



A Lyn Fei wrote:
Would you recommend, since you recommend giving everyone equal rights, to give everyone equal punishment? My mother works for the NYS Dep't of Corrections. She sees inmates as young as 16 or 17, but would you recommend that a ten year old be given the same sentence as a 40 year old? If they have the same rights, the same responsibilities, should they have the same repercussions?
Presumably, but I 'd not wanna decide a case without knowing the facts at hand.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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