Please Don't Feed our Bums

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I don't conflate this stuff. I haven't lived it like Robert, but I've lived it in my community. I think you two are juniors at anything to do with homelessness and/or desperate teens who are escaping homes, aka, bums, a word from the forties.

How can you say such a thing?

When I was 18 I moved away to college in Austin, TX - a town notorious for it's homeless population. I lived for years on Guadalupe street, the mecca for these homeless guys in that town, for panhandling. I got hit up for money every single day for 5 straight years and saw all sorts of **** go down. I also met some nice folks - much like you describe - and know intimately that not everyone who is currently homeless wants to be that way or stays that way.

Then I moved here to Berkeley, and I get hit up for change on my way to and from work every single day. My wife gets asked for change every day on her way to school. I get crackheads on my street every evening without exception. Homeless folks take our recycling and sell it for money.

I've had 13 straight years of experience dealing with homeless folks and bums and those who are hard on their luck, so please don't tell me I don't know what I speak of. I most certainly do.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

The last thing I'd give up on earth is my dog (or, in my case, was my dog). I can see some re cigs and alcohol, a way to get by. I'll go so far as to include other drugs. Really, you guys seems stoned with no empathy. A kind of fright of other.

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@DrewDad,

Desperation is not an excuse? What planet are you on?

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Desperation is not an excuse? What planet are you on?

Desperation is not an excuse for actions. It is a motivator. There is a significant difference between the two.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

DD is exactly correct above, and I will say that I find your repeated insistence that I believe that all these people to be 'genetically inferior' to be a weak retreat from the substance of the argument on your part, Robert. You have latched on to one statement I made and tried to use it to attack my entire position. This isn't logically valid.

What position? You have no argument on this thread except that you don't like aggressive panhandlers and then your scathing condemnations about them.

Quote:

I've explained to you what I meant, and if you don't want to accept that as valid, that's your problem, not mine; for your insistence that this one sentence of mine somehow encapsulates the problem is erroneous in the extreme.

As for "explaining" your statement it's clearly not an explanation, but a lie. You clearly were not talking about social evolution, you were talking about Darwin and natural selection and now lack the intellectual honesty to own up to it. Of course I don't let that pass.

I don't think it "encapsulates the problem" (what problem?) either, I just think it is dumb machismo and overstatement that you aren't willing to defend or denounce and are now trying to weasel into social evolution into about.

Quote:

I think the truth here is that you have a real stick up your ass about the homeless and people who don't get all weepy inside about the problem, and you enjoy arguing about it.

You think a lot of real negative stuff about a lot of people when it suits your fancy. You don't have to know them, or anything about them either which is mighty convenient.

Quote:

You don't want to hear other people's opinions, or accept them as valid, you just want someone to argue with.

Nonsense, what I don't want is to let you get away with your unabashed intellectual dishonesty by pretending you weren't talking about Darwinistic natural selection. That is all. You like arguing too, and probably wouldn't let someone else get off with that kind of intellectual dishonestly either.

Quote:

I'm not interested in arguing with you for the sake of argument.

I can see why, you don't want to try to explain how you weren't making a Darwinistic argument because it's obvious that you were (hell you even called it by name).

Quote:

On that note, I'd really like you to define what your argument is here, Robert, ...

LOL! Of course you would, and of course on "that note". Thanks but no thanks. I'll just let the deflection stand bare.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

That's nice, 13 years, bums bums bums again. You seem to have no clue these are humans. Seems defensive.

I'll admit there are people in bigger despond than others. It's the condescension thing that grates.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

What position? You have no argument on this thread except that you don't like aggressive panhandlers and then your scathing condemnations about them.

For God's sake, yes! That is my entire argument! That is also the argument of the person who is quoted in the article in the beginning of the thread. I do not believe that she was incorrect to make that statement. So as you can see, I am perfectly on topic here.

As for you, you have twice dodged defining your argument in this thread. You know as well as I do that people who do that, who beg off when asked to simply state their position, are doing so for a reason. Please - instead of once again stating that you aren't required to define your argument.

Re: the Darwin comment; you are perfectly incorrect. Let us drill down:

Quote:

Nonsense, what I don't want is to let you get away with your unabashed intellectual dishonesty by pretending you weren't talking about Darwinistic natural selection. That is all. You like arguing too, and probably wouldn't let someone else get off with that kind of intellectual dishonestly either.

So, just to be clear. You think, that I allege, that these young Bums who choose not to work for various reasons are genetically inferior? That I do not even ascribe them the choice of making the correct decision, but instead claim that they are somehow unable to do so?

I assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. If I truly believed they were genetically inferior, I would pity them! How can one hold someone they believe to be incapable, responsible? What you are saying here is 100% the opposite of my argument.

The truth is that I believe that most of the group in question - young, aggressive homeless folks - are perfectly capable of making better decisions in their lives.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

I ought to call Bill and restart your correlation arguments.

I suppose it could also be the dust storms....

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

That's nice, 13 years, bums bums bums again. You seem to have no clue these are humans. Seems defensive.

Bum is a description of behavior, not one of inherent characteristics.

Quote:

I'll admit there are people in bigger despond than others. It's the condescension thing that grates.

I don't understand what part you think is condescending. I'm not being facetious here; I'm being serious. I have consistently maintained that I judge people based on their actions, and I think the idea that the homeless are not responsible for their actions just like everyone else is frankly more condescending than my beliefs.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

To clarify, no I don't actually believe you think they are genetically inferior, that is why I said I think you were making a "hyperbolic overstatement" (if I believed you actually believe the absolutism you are sometimes prone to I'd not like you half as much) but yes, I do think you were making a very clear reference to natural selection, not social evolution. But either way, we've wasted enough of this thread with me trying to get you to own up to that and I don't intend to pursue it further.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

You seem to have absolutely no empathy for humans whose actions are sometimes wrong, chaotic, or at the least, not progressively forward. Thus I take you as naive, not meaning to be insulting, but just telling you, life is more complicated.

2 Replies

@ossobuco,

Quote:

, life is more complicated.

he is a college puke right? some stuff one does not learn till much later in life...

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Fine, let us move on and talk about the substance of the discussion:

Do you think that homeless folks should be held responsible for their actions like everyone else, or not? If someone I didn't know started yelling at me on the street, I would think that dude is probably an asshole - not matter what his clothes looked like. This happens to me (and even more so to a lot of ladies I know) on a pretty regular basis. It's not cool and when several of these kids get together they tend to egg each other on.

No matter what someone's social status is, if they are mean and rude to you, you form a negative opinion of them. If someone is pissing in your doorway, you're not gonna like'em. I don't see why it should be any different with homeless folks. I don't have anything actively against them; I don't want them rounded up or made illegal or anything. My first post in this thread was in support of the Obama homeless-ending plan thingy (which probably won't work but at least it's attention on the issue). I pay taxes and elect candidates who promise to spend more tax money on the homeless. I just don't understand what else you and others seem to want out of someone.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

That's another of your asinine responses. Not to mention condescending. Empathy has nothing to do with age.

I have no empathy with aggressive folk whatever their lot in life. I don't like being harrassed. By anybody. I don't like being threatened. By anybody. And when an aggressive asshole demands money that I worked for, I think I have the right to say No. Without any prejorative judgements.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Do you think that homeless folks should be held responsible for their actions like everyone else, or not?

Yes. I suspect, however, that I have greater recognition for situational factors than do you for all.

Quote:

If someone I didn't know started yelling at me on the street, I would think that dude is probably an asshole - not matter what his clothes looked like. This happens to me (and even more so to a lot of ladies I know) on a pretty regular basis. It's not cool and when several of these kids get together they tend to egg each other on.

I know about this, I do not reward it and it often is not too dissimilar to mugging.

Quote:

No matter what someone's social status is, if they are mean and rude to you, you form a negative opinion of them. If someone is pissing in your doorway, you're not gonna like'em. I don't see why it should be any different with homeless folks. I don't have anything actively against them; I don't want them rounded up or made illegal or anything.

There's a lot more to the ostracization of the homeless than their rudeness though, and many times such things are a pretext for other motivations that may be as selfish and shallow as not wanting to have an eyesore in view.

Quote:

I pay taxes and elect candidates who promise to spend more tax money on the homeless. I just don't understand what else you and others seem to want out of someone.

In your case just less feckless excoriation of them as street rats, opportunities for Darwinian improvement and the like. In the case of others the cessation of advocacy to stop helping homeless people on the basis of such generalized slurs and the rejection of attempts to legislate them under the rug.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

You seem to have absolutely no empathy for humans whose actions are sometimes wrong, chaotic, or at the least, not progressively forward. Thus I take you as naive, not meaning to be insulting, but just telling you, life is more complicated.

Another serious question: what does 'empathy' mean, in this instance?

I've been through some problems in my life, but nothing like what a lot of other people have. I understand that things go wrong for folks and they have to do what they have to do to survive. I don't even blame them for it.

But I don't understand why people have to be jerks about it. The other week a kid told my wife - who is a sweet person who has dedicated her life to helping poor folks get psychological services when they couldn't normally afford it - to '**** off and die, 'when she wouldn't give him money(she doesn't carry cash). His friends all laughed about it and she hurried away. It ruined her ******* day and she was really upset.

I don't know what sort of feelings I you think I should be having in this situation. I've seen this sort of thing happen a lot in my life. As I said above, I have also met folks who are perfectly fine, who are homeless or living out of their cars; it isn't about someone's status at all, just their behavior towards others. I guess I feel sad that people feel they have to act this way, or that they have a mental disturbance or history which they ought to be getting help for but never will. But I cannot understand why they would have done such a thing.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Mame,

Quote:

Empathy has nothing to do with age.

understanding the complications of human relationship takes decades of life to understand to any depth. Most of us think that we know it all at 20, the smart amongst us know better later in life.

Young people always hate getting told this, but I dont really give a ****...

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

In the case of others the cessation of advocacy to stop helping homeless people on the basis of such generalized slurs and the rejection of attempts to legislate them under the rug.

Again, you're conflating anger against aggressive panhandlers with anger against all homeless people.

It's possible to be angry with the aggressive panhandlers in particular, and still have compassion toward homeless people in general.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

But I don't understand why people have to be jerks about it.

At lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs people change. Some social niceties are cast aside.

I, for one, was a much less pleasant and charming individual when I was homeless. I never approached anyone or talked to anyone or harassed them but that didn't stop many of them from harassing me, kicking me (literally) when I'm down, throwing beer bottles at me and drive by insults. That can get old and people can develop a me-against-the-world (that was actually one of my favorite 'pac songs back then) attitude out of despair.

I didn't lash out (except for once with the cops) but I hid behind headphones and sunglasses and hated life. I refused to get angry at the more fortunate folk, like many others did, deeply resenting their shallow problems (I remember one homeless guy saying he wished his problems as a teen were zits and prom dates and how much he hated "white" people (he really meant rich people) for getting cars for their 16th birthday and so on) but I was not a happy person and it was reflected in my attitude (with lots of people saying I had a lot of said "attitude").

I find it far less surprising than you that these folk are not as pleasant, well adjusted and charming. The school of hard knocks produces fewer bubbly personalities and yeah some people are bitter as hell and blame the world for their predicament. I was bitter myself, not at anyone else but I wasn't happy. But when I got off the streets my mood improved considerably. Guess being on the streets isn't all fun and games, and that might influence personality a bit, who knew.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Again, you're conflating anger against aggressive panhandlers with anger against all homeless people.

No, I am not.

Quote:

It's possible to be angry with the aggressive panhandlers in particular, and still have compassion toward homeless people in general.

Sure and while we are stating the obvious let's mention that it's also possible for anger at aggressive panhandlers to generalize with imperfect discernment on the part of people who write off the "lazy" fecklessly.

1 Reply

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