Please Don't Feed our Bums

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

But they get abusive when you refuse to hand them money. It can be disturbing. There are several streets here that my wife and most of the women I know here don't like to walk down, because they are infested with these bums who don't like to take no for an answer. I really don't care personally but the women feel intimidated and harassed.

I am very familiar with aggressive panhandlers, but what is your point? I prefer societies that don't legislate away all their dregs. That don't kill their strays and sweep away their bums. Are you expressing a preference for your more sterile society in America or just saying some panhandlers can be annoying (I know, lots of people are annoying).

Quote:

What is the purpose of having the power of judgment, if not to use it?

Well there's always using it wisely as an alternative to what I'm criticizing.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

The young kids run in packs and have enough money for dogs and cigarettes. They tend to be white and smelly and under the age of 30.

Oh, well, DOGS and CIGARETTES! Boy, if they've got enough money for that stuff, they sure are doing well!

You're goddamned right they are. If they have money for frivolous ****, they don't need a single cent from me or anyone else. It's insulting to people who are homeless with real problems and frankly I could care less what happens to this group, because for the most part they are assholes.

There is no comparison between these lazy ass bums and the true homeless, at all.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

I am very familiar with aggressive panhandlers, but what is your point?

I don't want to legislate these people away, but I don't care if they live or die. Not even a little. Why should I? They give me no reason to do so, they don't contribute to society in any way. They don't do anything at all.

Quote:

Quote:
What is the purpose of having the power of judgment, if not to use it?

Well there's always using it wisely as an alternative to what I'm criticizing.

Well, that's just a matter of opinion, as to what 'wisely' entails. I personally do not believe it is wise to give money to or even acknowledge these asses who have chosen to drop out rather than work towards something constructive. On the other hand, I am likely to give money to homeless who actually need it - older folks with mental problems, who likely couldn't find a job if they tried.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're goddamned right they are. If they have money for frivolous ****, they don't need a single cent from me or anyone else. It's insulting to people who are homeless with real problems and frankly I could care less what happens to this group, because for the most part they are assholes.

Yea, you're right, only the rich and traditionally-employed should be allowed to purchase frivolous ****. You're not entitled to enjoy frivolous **** until it comes in the form of fancy cars, boats, aged wine, and Cuban cigars.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're goddamned right they are. If they have money for frivolous ****, they don't need a single cent from me or anyone else. It's insulting to people who are homeless with real problems and frankly I could care less what happens to this group, because for the most part they are assholes.

Yea, you're right, only the rich and traditionally-employed should be allowed to purchase frivolous ****. You're not entitled to enjoy frivolous **** until it comes in the form of fancy cars, boats, aged wine, and Cuban cigars.

You are confusing the argument here. I don't care what these people buy; but their choice to waste their money on non-essential drugs and animals, while at the same time complaining that they are so poor they require some of MY money, and then getting aggressive when they don't receive it, is a choice which I can do nothing but disdain.

To pretend their is no difference between those who CHOOSE to be homeless, and those who are FORCED to do so, is to reveal that you don't really know what you are talking about.

To be direct, I would say that, no - when you have no income, and you choose to spend what little you do have on frivolous stuff, you aren't entitled to beg for more from me.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

I'm neither self-righteous nor patronizing.

I just think that there are certain behaviors that should not be rewarded. It doesn't matter if the person is homeless or a multi-millionaire, I don't want to reward people for being assholes.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo,

Do you think that all need is financial? Do you think that all these folks are living this kind of life due to rejecting work? Do you consider that any of these may be dropping out of society for other reasons that are every bit as legitimate as financial need? Do you consider that some of these folk may be lacking in guidance?

You've decided they are lazy assholes, but probably don't know anything about them at all. Many of them probably are, but some are fighting some tough demons while folks like you write them off. Even if they are the lazy assholes you think they are this doesn't mean they are beyond help, but you seem to write them off entirely on the basis of panhandling (odd that, a lot of professors around you did that as youth, and were social dropouts for non-financial reasons as well).

And when that sentiment is taken to the point where they are legislated against and swept away I object to society taking the easy short-term solutions to their eyesores.

2 Replies

I do know what Cyclo is talking about, they were in Madison too, and I knew several of 'em and talked to them... that particular group really was doing this as a (temporary) lifestyle choice.

That said, I very much agree with what Pangloss has to say about the impossibility of knowing this for sure. We can make educated guesses but some of the people who appear to be the dilettantes, aren't.

And so the question remains, what then?

0 Replies

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Oh, well, DOGS and CIGARETTES! Boy, if they've got enough money for that stuff, they sure are doing well!

They're doing better than a lot of other people. I'd rather send my money to Africa to help some poor kid who's starving, than give money to someone who's going to buy butts with it.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're goddamned right they are. If they have money for frivolous ****, they don't need a single cent from me or anyone else.

When I was homeless I smoked and did drugs. People are always quick, of course, to ascribe the situation to your drugs rather than the drugs to your situation.

Sometimes the drugs were cheaper than food, and either way the food just made me stop being hungry while the drugs could sometimes make me stop being both hungry and sad.

I don't mind if a bum takes my money to buy a beer. I sometimes enjoy a beer and they need an enjoyable moment more than I do. Sure, lots of them are abusing substances but I never see anyone saying that try to help them (what, rich alcoholics deserve sympathy but the poor ones scorn?), it's just an excuse to write them off.

Quote:

It's insulting to people who are homeless with real problems and frankly I could care less what happens to this group, because for the most part they are assholes.

And you never wonder why? Sometimes they are there because too many people just couldn't care. Sometimes they are just assholes. I suspect you are willing to see "asshole" a lot easier than am I and subsequently to dismiss the person for it much more easily (you and I are both assholes, but I don't write you off for it).

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I just think that there are certain behaviors that should not be rewarded. It doesn't matter if the person is homeless or a multi-millionaire, I don't want to reward people for being assholes.

In that case I think you shouldn't reward them then. Seems simple enough.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

But it's not them being eyesores that's the problem.

You're assuming as much about Cyclo as you say he is about the homeless folk.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You are confusing the argument here. I don't care what these people buy; but their choice to waste their money on non-essential drugs and animals, while at the same time complaining that they are so poor they require some of MY money, and then getting aggressive when they don't receive it, is a choice which I can do nothing but disdain.

I'm confusing nothing. Your "argument", like others made, just consists of dividing up panhandlers into groups and claiming that one you'd like to support, and the other you wouldn't. In reality, it's difficult to determine where the line is. If you want to dislike their choice, fine. But they've got the right to panhandle. Panhandling is a business, like it or not. Do you think all of the money donated to the salvation army goes straight to poor folk?

Quote:

To pretend their is no difference between those who CHOOSE to be homeless, and those who are FORCED to do so, is to reveal that you don't really know what you are talking about.

Yea, it would be, but I didn't "pretend" this. Certainly there are probably some who choose to go homeless, but I'm claiming that in every day life, you couldn't accurately distinguish them from some of the others. And if they did "choose" to go homeless, perhaps they came from a terrible broken home, have mental problems, or something else. YOU are the one who has no idea of what you're talking about, because you have not walked a mile in these people's shoes. It's easy to judge when you are just looking down from your ivory tower.

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To be direct, I would say that, no - when you have no income, and you choose to spend what little you do have on frivolous stuff, you aren't entitled to beg for more from me.

Once again this goes back to free speech; we ARE entitled to beg for money, even if we don't need it for anything more than cigarettes. Just as you ARE entitled to ignore the person and go on about your day.

2 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

I don't reward them.

I also don't see any problem in telling other people not to reward them, which is the whole point of the sticker that started this thread.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

Cyclo,

Do you think that all need is financial? Do you think that all these folks are living this kind of life due to rejecting work? Do you consider that any of these may be dropping out of society for other reasons that are every bit as legitimate as financial need? Do you consider that some of these folk may be lacking in guidance?

It isn't that I don't know that there are a variety of reasons; I just don't care. At all.

This isn't to say that I hate homeless, or want to legislate them away; far from it. I am just indifferent. However, when they become aggressive with myself or with my wife - and they are especially aggressive towards females in my experience - I move from indifference to disdain.

Nothing gives them or anyone the right to be verbally abusive and sometimes physically threatening to people who refuse to give them money. And I witness this on a weekly basis.

Quote:

Even if they are the lazy assholes you think they are this doesn't mean they are beyond help, but you seem to write them off entirely on the basis of panhandling (odd that, a lot of professors around you did that as youth, and were social dropouts for non-financial reasons as well).

So what? They got their **** together, good for them. That has nothing to do with our discussion at all.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

Once again this goes back to free speech; we ARE entitled to beg for money,

Actually, you're not. Which is why all the panhandlers around here "sell jokes", or say something like "out of work, anything helps".

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Pangloss wrote:
Oh, well, DOGS and CIGARETTES! Boy, if they've got enough money for that stuff, they sure are doing well!

They're doing better than a lot of other people. I'd rather send my money to Africa to help some poor kid who's starving, than give money to someone who's going to buy butts with it.

Good for you, I hope the starving Africans aren't just a rhetorical device though, and that you actually do help them.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

I also give to the local food bank.

I also donate all my old stuff to Goodwill.

It's not about refusing to help people; it's about refusing to help people in an inefficient and ineffectual manner, or in a manner that encourages them to be assholes.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Pangloss wrote:
Once again this goes back to free speech; we ARE entitled to beg for money,

Actually, you're not. Which is why all the panhandlers around here "sell jokes", or say something like "out of work, anything helps".

Actually, you are, in many places. Some places have unconstitutional local laws against panhandling...

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Quote:

I'm confusing nothing. Your "argument", like others made, just consists of dividing up panhandlers into groups and claiming that one you'd like to support, and the other you wouldn't.

Not 'like to support,' but do support. I give money to old homeless dudes around here on a regular basis, and buy papers off of them. And there is a clear and obvious difference between the two groups.

Quote:

Once again this goes back to free speech; we ARE entitled to beg for money, even if we don't need it for anything more than cigarettes. Just as you ARE entitled to ignore the person and go on about your day.

Sure thing. I don't have a problem with that at all. But, when they refuse to take no for an answer, I don't have to respect that decision at all. And when you see the same guys harassing people over and over again, it's hard not to have extremely negative feelings about them. And when this group numbers between 100 and 200 people who regularly hang around your town, it becomes really difficult not to believe that they are willingly engaging in this behavior because they enjoy it.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

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