Please Don't Feed our Bums

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Yes it is. How do you distinguish? So called bums may well be in serious depression.

I for one am unconcerned with their mental state; I am only concerned with their actions towards me and others.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

When those who continually engage in behaviors which are deemed by society to be unsavory, or who fail to produce for themselves in society in any way at all, are shown to have greatly reduced life outcomes based on these factors, it serves as a lesson that these behaviors are not a viable way to live one's life.

That doesn't improve the "entire species", just the observers. Try again. You made a Darwinian (not a learn from the mistakes of others argument, you invoked Darwin and entire species) argument and now don't have the intellectual integrity to stick with it or denounce it so you pretend it was a statement about learning from the failure of others when that is a laughable interpretation of very obviously intended meaning.

Quote:

I will remind you once again that I not only support paying taxes to help people, I give my personal money to those I believe need help - the old and mentally disturbed who cannot help themselves. I just don't feel the same way about young folks who have decided that they don't give a **** about society, it's rules or expectations - yet somehow believe that the rest of us are obligated to take care of them somehow. We are not.

That's nice, I just don't see how that has anything to do with the Darwinian argument you were supposed to be defending.

Quote:

You may refer to my statements or beliefs using whatever words you like; I am unconcerned by them. Personally I feel that your side of the argument is unsupportable using logic, and you have shifted to an Ad Hominem attack instead.

I'll give your opinion all the consideration it is due. Meanwhile, feel free to go ahead and explain the illogic you claim to have dispelled and explain how your Darwinian argument can benefit the "entire species".

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

How do you distinguish? So called bums may well be in serious depression.

Depression is not an excuse for harassing people who are minding their own business.

Depression is not an excuse for urinating in someone's doorway.

Bums may be homeless, but they distinguish themselves by their actions.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Like I said, no empathy.

2 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

That doesn't improve the "entire species", just the observers.

Over time the entire species sees what works and what doesn't work. This is called Social evolution and it has been going on for around twenty thousand years now.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth, or paint me as some sort of Racist or bigot, Robert. It doesn't advance the conversation in any way and it makes you seem a little pissy.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Like I said, no empathy.

Should I have empathy for them? Why?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sigh. It's like you just ignore what I write completely. I have sympathy for the homeless, I have less so for Bums, I have even less so for Aggressive Bums.

But you repeatedly say you don't care about their mental state, what they are going through or anything at all about them and yet are willing to condemn them so scathingly. Your "sympathy" is fickle.

Quote:

That has been my entire argument in the thread, and what more, the argument of the person who was quoted in the initial article.

What "argument"? That you don't give a **** and don't care about "bums"? That is a pointless point.

Quote:

It is you who are arguing that there is no distinction whatsoever in homeless folks; or, what exactly are you arguing, again? I can't tell anymore.

I find that unsurprising, but instead of repeating myself I prefer that you reorient yourself and get your own bearings. You know, help yourself and all.

0 Replies

@ossobuco,

Frankly, I don't have much empathy for someone who's being an asshole, either.

Again, you're conflating "panhandler" with "homeless person".

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Aggression can be a response in a defense. Surely you know that from your chair.

Yes, it can be a ploy. For some, a ploy to live, or for some younger folk, a ploy to make some money, a kind of gaming. There are many other instances of that than in ocean beach or ocean front walk.

I haven't heard the word bums since my aunt died in the seventies.
I think I am looking at privilege with people who use that word.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

You're kidding. No, you're not kidding.

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

I don't conflate this stuff. I haven't lived it like Robert, but I've lived it in my community. I think you two are juniors at anything to do with homelessness and/or desperate teens who are escaping homes, aka, bums, a word from the forties.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Over time the entire species sees what works and what doesn't work. This is called Social evolution and it has been going on for around twenty thousand years now.

Nonsense, what does "Darwin", have to do with this (hint, he was a naturalist, not a sociologist)? You said "Darwin" would take care of this. You are weaseling out of your overstatement.

Quote:

Quit trying to put words in my mouth, or paint me as some sort of Racist or bigot, Robert. It doesn't advance the conversation in any way and it makes you seem a little pissy.

I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth. In fact I never used the words racist or bigot here (I see you have no compunction yourself about putting words in the mouths of others) and, in fact, characterized it as hyperbolic machismo that I don't quite take seriously. I don't need to put words in your mouth, you can try to claim you were making an argument about the evolution of social behavior but your language makes it perfectly clear that it wasn't what you were talking about. Darwin was not a sociologist, and has nothing to do with social evolution. He is, however, the father of the theory of natural selection which is obviously what you were referring to here:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I don't care much about helping them, personally; that's up to them to do. Not my mission nor goal in life. If they cannot help themselves, Darwin takes care of the problem eventually and the entire species ends up that much stronger for it.

I guess being "pissy" means not letting you weasel out of your overstatement huh?

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Aggression can be a response in a defense.

Except that I haven't done anything to them for them to defend themselves against me. (Neither has Cyclo, or Cyclo's wife.)

Are they desperate? Maybe. But desperation is not an excuse, either.

Finally, I question their desperation when they have cigarettes and pets, as Cyclo has described.

Cyclo isn't condemning all homeless people; he's condemning a certain subset of people on the streets because of what he can observe about their behavior. Cyclo isn't alone in this; Boomerang had a thread about someone who had been panhandling near her house.

3 Replies

this homeless/bum/pan handler/street people/public urination/crackhead etc problem must be a california thing. We here in albuquerque nm never seen or even heard of these kinds of problems although in Cairo Egypt I was once approached by a child begging "alms for the hashhish." If a community has problems of this nature the city/county should allocate funds and transport them one and all to some island from from civil society so they can't be seen or smelled. (this is not a grumpy post, it's sarcasm)

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Cyclo isn't alone in this; Boomerang had a thread about someone who had been panhandling near her house.

Well that settles it then.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

I will note that in Lubbock, where you can't buy alcohol by the bottle, there are significantly fewer panhandlers than elsewhere in Texas.

Just sayin'.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

I wish it would. I really, really wish it would.

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

I ought to call Bill and restart your correlation arguments.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

Homeless people don't usually flock to 100 degree heat. I'd go to Venice too.
Once upon a time, back in the eighties, the LA Examiner, now defunct, interviewed a lot of homeless at the beach. Some huge percentage had come (here) from elsewhere with just about no money - in my memory, something like 80%. I said we were a mecca, I meant that. They came to Venice and similar places for weather, and probably for some relaxed population. I am glad, personally, that Venice never became Singapore.

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@Robert Gentel,

DD is exactly correct above, and I will say that I find your repeated insistence that I believe that all these people to be 'genetically inferior' to be a weak retreat from the substance of the argument on your part, Robert. You have latched on to one statement I made and tried to use it to attack my entire position. This isn't logically valid. I've explained to you what I meant, and if you don't want to accept that as valid, that's your problem, not mine; for your insistence that this one sentence of mine somehow encapsulates the problem is erroneous in the extreme.

I think the truth here is that you have a real stick up your ass about the homeless and people who don't get all weepy inside about the problem, and you enjoy arguing about it. You don't want to hear other people's opinions, or accept them as valid, you just want someone to argue with. I'm not interested in arguing with you for the sake of argument.

On that note, I'd really like you to define what your argument is here, Robert, because - your attempt at deflecting my question aside - you are all over the place in this thread. I have consistently and from the very beginning said that I base my beliefs and feelings about this issue on the actions of those involved, not their inherent characteristics. You keep trying to change the conversation away from this, because holding homeless folks responsible for their behavior - in essence, treating them exactly as you would anyone else - doesn't fit the narrative you are putting forth.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

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