Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:37 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

Duh. I don't give them my money. What's your point?


What's your point? You went on this big rant about not wanting to support bums, but you already don't support them by keeping your loose change. So what, exactly, do you have against these people?
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:42 pm
I've spelled it out twice. If you can't read, or understand, fuggedaboutit. You want to support people who can but choose not to contribute to their own lives, go ahead. End. Of. Story.
dlowan
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:43 pm
@Linkat,
She's an arsehole.


Why not just make the bums wear a yellow star?
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 10:47 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

I've spelled it out twice. If you can't read, or understand, fuggedaboutit. You want to support people who can but choose not to contribute to their own lives, go ahead. End. Of. Story.


I support the right to free speech; this includes allowing people to "be jerks", heckle, and ask for money, as long as they're not actually threatening or being violent.

If free speech bothers you, I'd recommend staying at home and watching the tube. This way you can also avoid being bothered by having to directly view the impoverished conditions in which many of your fellow human beings are forced to live.
Robert Gentel
 
  6  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 11:23 pm
@Mame,
My point was that anyone can be annoying but society likes to sweep away its dregs with any excuse it can. And in doing so it likes to come up with justifications (a common human characteristic is to prefer to ascribe the misfortune of others to dispositional causes, while preferring to write their own misfortune off to situational causes) on the basis of annoyance, laziness and other negative characteristics that nobody else is getting run out of town because of except the folks that society also just happens not to want to have to look at.

I know what aggressive beggars are like, and how annoying they can be ("sir, one coin?" is like nails on a chalkboard to some folks here already as the crackheads chase them down the street shouting it). In some places I've lived it gets to the point where the rich paid off-duty cops to have them killed and the nuisance eliminated. Around the world, in places where classism is more acceptable people talk about it openly. The rich are the "beautiful people" and these are the "ugly people" and they don't want them spoiling the landscape.

I just wish they weren't always first in line to be swept under the rug, because some of them are fighting legitimate situational hardship (even if they often add to it with dispositional failings themselves) and don't need the extra obstacles (and little things like not being able to hang out near a public phone can make it that much harder to land the gainful employment to pull you out). There are plenty of well-off douche bags, spoiled screaming little brats, and self-righteous pricks occupying public space that I wish society didn't jump so quickly to try to sweep their unfortunate from view on the flimsy basis of such common human flaws as laziness or being annoying. But it's easier to just move them, dump them somewhere else and ascribe all their misfortune to their laziness so that society doesn't feel bad about it.

When I was homeless as a teenager I never panhandled (too proud to ever ask for help), I never annoyed anyone and I certainly wasn't lazy. But people just plain didn't want to see me sleeping on the park bench when they took their early morning walks, they didn't want to let me use the free gyms when they found out I was using them for the showers, and they just didn't want to be around me if they found out I was homeless. Simply put, they didn't want homeless people in their society. It didn't matter if they didn't know a minute before and thought I was a stout fellow if they found out I was a full-time outdoorsman they didn't want their kids around me, I was suddenly a bad influence solely on on the basis of being shelter-challenged and was systemically ostracized and kicked out of the small town and this effort by society to rid itself of its dregs makes it so much harder for them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. So many go out of their way to kick them, scold them and use them to feel superior to them.

Cops would pick me up, and just drive me to some other town ("your parents are in Brazil? ****, let's just drop him off somewhere.") to be someone else's problem, and I'd spend the night walking back to the park bench (later dugout, which offered much more shelter) where drunk idiots could drive by and call me lazy and throw beer bottles at me. I was the hardest working mother ****** in that town but at a glance most people decided that if I was homeless I was lazy and either way just didn't want me around. I worked my ass off however I could but being America there were, of course, laws against me working ("child labor"), laws against me being homeless (curfew as a minor), and laws preventing me from continuing my education without a complex emancipation that I was not going to be able to win because of the whole being poor thing. I couldn't dig myself out of my hole in that town (my only legal option would have to become a ward of the state) and I had to leave and find a place that didn't beat its least fortunate members down even further to start bootstrapping. I actually had to leave the land of the rich, where it was against the law to be as badly off as I was and where people liked to kick and mock the poor and move to a third world country to get back on my feet. Without society actively rejecting me for being too poor (I was then not the worst off in that third-world society) it was easy to get back on my feet and come back to America on good terms.

There are plenty of lazy bums (just as there are plenty of lazy non-bums), but I also think that there are a lot of people who would rather write them off that way than face a less comfortable reality. There are a lot of people who are annoyed by the mere sight of their lot in life and just don't want to deal with it. That reaction often results in an additional burden and obstacle for them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2010 11:29 pm
Counterpoint

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062204040.html

Obama admin expands efforts to house the homeless

Cycloptichorn
oolongteasup
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 12:08 am
@Linkat,
Quote:
said Denise Prigmore


good on de knees prig more

those mendicants beggar belief

altho i prefer to cuddle up with friends at night to minimise the likelihood of being bludgeoned to death

denise prigmore is the very eponym of nominative determinism
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 12:10 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Counterpoint

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/22/AR2010062204040.html

Obama admin expands efforts to house the homeless

Cycloptichorn


I have to say I am happy that my current state government adopted a really long-term program to work with the homeless, following advice from those who really knew what the issues were, which, 5 or so years down the track is leading to some really good outcomes.

They hav been, in many ways, a very disappointing centrist/left government, but have actually been prepared to stick with this program through some very difficult public drama:

eg: They DIDN'T try to make the homeless invisible (for instance they provided small portable tents to a large community of Aboriginal drunks who were living in my local park)

They didn't try to force them into shelters, but are providing small flats, with lots of mental health etc support, and where thye don't lose their home if they go off on a bender for a few weeks.

They are, also, of course, working intensively with homeless kids to support them to continue with education and general connection to society

Apparently this is now bearing fruit.

Other than that, what Robert said.

0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 12:25 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Around the world, in places where classism is more acceptable people talk about it openly. The rich are the "beautiful people" and these are the "ugly people" and they don't want them spoiling the landscape.


Yea, this basically hits the nail on the head. We don't want to be looking at the unclean masses while we drive down to the country club on the weekend, so let's just legislate them the hell out of here.

Thanks for sharing Robert.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 07:54 am
@Robert Gentel,
I'm sorry that you had to go through that, but were you the exception, or the rule?

There's a difference, here, between "homeless" and "bum". If you're working to improve your situation, then you're not a bum.

The difficulty is to be able to discern the difference. And encouraging bums makes it harder to actually help the homeless who need and want help*.

*Help being defined here as something that will ultimately assist them in getting out of poverty.



I'm all for the homeless having a safe bed and sufficient food. "Three hots and a cot."

But there are many, many homeless people who refuse even that level of assistance, and instead choose to panhandle.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:54 am
Robert, I've said I was not talking about the homeless or the mentally ill, twice, I believe. I said I was talking about young, healthy and fit people who CHOOSE to opt out of society, yet are willing to beg for a handout, then heckle or threaten when we choose NOT to support their lifestyle.

Of course I support those in need, but I don't see the youngsters I'm referring to as being in need.

I had two nieces who lived on the streets by their own choice. They had good homes but they weren't interested in living in them. They could have gotten a job to feed themselves, but opted not to. Their choice. What's that to me? Nothing. One niece had a very healthy large dog and neither of them starved.

And it never bothered me to see panhandlers on the street as long as they don't interfere with me. Some of them are very entertaining. They can do whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think less of them (reminds me of hippies, actually). Just don't expect me to support their choices.

The mentally ill, on the other hand, I have very strong feelings of support for. For them, it's NOT a choice, and it's often misunderstood and many people fear them. Our society (Canada) really leaves these people out in the cold and I find that neglect criminal.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 08:58 am
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:

Mame wrote:

I've spelled it out twice. If you can't read, or understand, fuggedaboutit. You want to support people who can but choose not to contribute to their own lives, go ahead. End. Of. Story.


I support the right to free speech; this includes allowing people to "be jerks", heckle, and ask for money, as long as they're not actually threatening or being violent.

If free speech bothers you, I'd recommend staying at home and watching the tube. This way you can also avoid being bothered by having to directly view the impoverished conditions in which many of your fellow human beings are forced to live.


How idiotic you are. I said the ones I didn't support are the young and healthy panhandlers who heckle and threaten. How many times does a person have to repeat themselves for you to get it?? I said nothing about the homeless, other than I wasn't talking about them.

What makes you think free speech bothers me? Where did you get that? Also, why do you assume I want to avoid being bothered by having to directly view the impoverished conditions etc etc?? I said nothing about that.

You are putting words in my mouth - inaccurate ones. You're an idiot.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:13 am
@Mame,
Or pee on your doorstep (unless of course you are kicky)
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:17 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
There's a difference, here, between "homeless" and "bum". If you're working to improve your situation, then you're not a bum.


Sure, and people make that distinction wisely instead of just making a judgment biased towards a more comfortable and self-serving narrative.

There is a great human tendency to ascribe your own fortune to dispositional causes and the fortune of others to situational causes, and a great tendency to ascribe your own misfortune to situational causes and the misfortune of others to dispositional causes.

Quote:
The difficulty is to be able to discern the difference. And encouraging bums makes it harder to actually help the homeless who need and want help*.


There's not much difficulty, just lots of predisposition to see it a certain way because it's a more comfortable narrative.

Quote:
But there are many, many homeless people who refuse even that level of assistance, and instead choose to panhandle.


So what? That isn't an excuse for people to get as self-righteous and patronizing about them as they do. It's amazing how much that is seen as a license to start the superiority complex trip.

Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:22 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
Robert, I've said I was not talking about the homeless or the mentally ill, twice, I believe.


I read you loud and clear. There is no miscommunication here. There is disagreement.

Quote:
I said I was talking about young, healthy and fit people who CHOOSE to opt out of society, yet are willing to beg for a handout, then heckle or threaten when we choose NOT to support their lifestyle.


I read you the first time. You probably don't always know what the reasons they have for choosing to do so are though, even though you ascribe it all to laziness. Last time I heard someone saying what you said about a "bum" didn't know that the girl was running away from a touchy-feely stepfather. Thought she was a lazy bum too, dismissing her and her life at a glance.

Quote:
Of course I support those in need, but I don't see the youngsters I'm referring to as being in need.


So? Don't support them then. Seems simple enough. But just because you don't see them in need doesn't mean they aren't in need. A lot of people see what they want in others.

Quote:
And it never bothered me to see panhandlers on the street as long as they don't interfere with me. Some of them are very entertaining. They can do whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think less of them (reminds me of hippies, actually). Just don't expect me to support their choices.


Nobody here has expressed any hope at all, much less any expectation, that you would support them. What is your point?

If it's just that they are irritating I'm just saying that self-righteous people who are so quick to judge others irritate me, and that humans have a strong predisposition to this kind of sneer. They often don't know what these folk are going through, but are willing to imagine that it is a narrative that they are comfortable with and to turn their nose up at them.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:23 am
@Mame,
What a ray of sunshine you are. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:29 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:

So? Don't support them then. Seems simple enough.


It isn't as simple as that. I deal with this a lot here in Berkeley, we have a large population of waster kids who refuse to take control of their life. I don't give a **** that they are homeless; they can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

But they get abusive when you refuse to hand them money. It can be disturbing. There are several streets here that my wife and most of the women I know here don't like to walk down, because they are infested with these bums who don't like to take no for an answer. I really don't care personally but the women feel intimidated and harassed.

Quote:
I'm saying that self-righteous people who are so quick to judge others irritate me, and that humans have a strong predisposition to this kind of sneer.


What is the purpose of having the power of judgment, if not to use it?

Cycloptichorn
Pangloss
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:31 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

How idiotic you are. I said the ones I didn't support are the young and healthy panhandlers who heckle and threaten. How many times does a person have to repeat themselves for you to get it?? I said nothing about the homeless, other than I wasn't talking about them.

What makes you think free speech bothers me? Where did you get that? Also, why do you assume I want to avoid being bothered by having to directly view the impoverished conditions etc etc?? I said nothing about that.

You are putting words in my mouth - inaccurate ones. You're an idiot.


Here we go, inevitably, with the insults. Why am I not surprised...

The obvious problem with your mindset is that you may think you can distinguish "young, healthy, fit, drop outs" from the hopeless "homeless". I don't believe that you can. You obviously just don't like the way certain people are living their lives; you want nothing to do with it, and that's fine. At least be honest.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:33 am
@Pangloss,
Quote:

The obvious problem with your mindset is that you may think you can distinguish "young, healthy, fit, drop outs" from the hopeless "homeless". I don't believe that you can.


Yeah, this is untrue. I can determine the difference, and here it is:

The young kids run in packs and have enough money for dogs and cigarettes. They tend to be white and smelly and under the age of 30.

The 'hopeless homeless' are the crack addicts who live on my street. They tend to be old and black. They don't have dogs or cigs or a backpack. Some of them don't even have shoes. They sell copies of the Street Spirit to get some cash to crash.

Cycloptichorn
Pangloss
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2010 10:35 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The young kids run in packs and have enough money for dogs and cigarettes. They tend to be white and smelly and under the age of 30.


Oh, well, DOGS and CIGARETTES! Boy, if they've got enough money for that stuff, they sure are doing well!
 

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