Culture: An Interactive Example

Oh, here's something I've noticed. The Philoforum ("Phils" for brevity?) users have mentioned a few times that they would like A2kers to stop using certain types of language.

I'm wondering is culturally this is (1) due to some sort of modesty, (2) an idea that the language is harmful to discussion, or (3) some other sort of established reason.

From the A2K side, I think this request will seem too authoritarian. A2kers tend to not like rules being imposed on them from other users. Perhaps some would feel like it's more important to be themselves in their posts then to comply with some sort of list of forbidden ways to express themselves. This is not to say that A2K doesn't police posts, but rather that this process is typically natural and posters abusing others will not be socially rewarded or will receive few replies (they could be ignored all together).

Question to the Phils: What about language is important to you?

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May I amicably nominate "Philistines"?

You're asking for it.

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I think Philophiles is less contentious.

dare I mention philophobes, at least re language. Ok, ok, probably not.

Didn't edit in time.

Philophiles, sure.

Well, I think that it is pretty natural for the cultural differences to stand out starkly, because the situation does not highlight the similarities between them. Within a given, isolated culture we often operate without giving much thought to the social patterns we move in, and the disruption caused by intermingling brings certain conflicting cultural norms to the fore, while leaving the non-clashing similarities relatively intact. But the similarities will emerge over time. In diplomatic situations, the discomfort of mixing cultures is often mitigated by meeting in a neutral place, a thing not always possible, especially on the interwebz.

I don't know if I am in a good position to speak for my fellow Philisitines, since I was a relative newcomer to the Philforum, myself. I signed up sometime in March, I think, and as you can see, had a measly 40-odd posts to my screen name. Nonetheless, I think that perhaps my noob-ness actually lends me a bit of a privileged perspective on the culture clash now ensuing.

I joined the Philforum after about a decade of philosophical isolation. (I have a BA in philosophy, but didn't pursue a career in it. In the meantime, while I continued to read phi, and occasionally even write [for myself], I didn't give myself many opportunities to explore my thoughts with others.) I chose to join the former forum after a brief search on the web, and enjoying the level of conversation that I found there. Despite a general respect I have for the members, the adjustment to the types of debate I encountered were not so easy after having years to myself.

I'm not sure what types of language are being proscribed by the Philistines, but I can tell you that there was a big focus on debate, rather than a more free-form tossing around of ideas. Sometimes this occurred to the detriment of the conversation in my opinion. (Examples of the Argumentum ad Logicam, the fallacy fallacy, were very common. There seemed to also be a general ignorance of what I can only consider a Law of the Internet [yes, with capitals]: you can't win an argument there. You can only persist until you reach the level of "well, uh-huh/ nuh-huh!) While I won't go so far as to say that analogies were looked down upon, they were not treated seriously. (Which was difficult for me, [because while I respect the logical arrangement of ideas] along with hypotheticals, I use analogies all the time.)

Similarly, I'm sure you've noted the outcry regarding the lack of a "quote button". When members wanted to make a rebuttal to a position, it was common to dissect a post section by section. When the posts were of considerable length this could be quite involved, although sometimes helpful.

I think the Philistines' reservations about the flippant comments they encounter are just expressions of concern. They want their topics treated seriously, because they are questions or areas of study about which they are genuinely curious. However, while I've noticed a larger number of humorous posts, I haven't noticed a decline in quality here in the posts that do address the topic at hand.

Overall, I'm excited about this cultural interchange. This isn't a case of Schadenfreude on my part. I'm just looking forward to the introduction of new perspectives and fresh modes of expression. My only serious objection to the new forum format is that it is so very, very white. Ay, I am blind! At the same time I sympathize with my Philistines' concerns regarding the cohesion of their community. While I haven't had time to forge any deep bonds with my fellow members, I appreciate that they exist and matter to the participants. Of course, if these bonds dissolve so easily in the face of novelty, I have to wonder how "deep" they actually are.

By the way, I will respond if you call me a Philistine. I've been known to drink Bud Light, and I think that a few of Adam Sandler's movies are funny. Oh! and I'm kinda wordy...sorry about that.

Double embedded parenthetical asides. Impressive.

Also, if you haven't found it yet. You can turn on the quote button in your settings. Then you can click on someone's post and have their text already in the BBcode.

Your description of the debates at the old forum don't sound all that alien to the ones here. I think the most potent way for the group to bond is to start arguing about a topic. LOL.

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Thanks for the perspective.

Thanks, and thanks for the thanks. I managed to locate the quote button relatively early. Someone else, probably Robert, helpfully supplied the location previously today.

By the way, I hope that, in my earlier post, I didn't come off as implying that longer-time A2K residents were not equally sincere in their questions or the seriousness of their responses. I didn't mean to give that impression. I just meant that, given the unfamiliar surroundings in which we now find ourselves, we Philistines might feel a little insecure as to how our contributions might be received.

Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that someone else from the Philosophy forum will come here to argue with some of my prior statements. I'd like to encourage their participation in this discussion, even if it's by making myself a target. Your thread seems like a good venue for easing some of the concerns they might have regarding the transition between forum formats.

Don't worry. I got what you were saying.

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From the brief observation I've had, the difference in culture is what you would expect between people who sought out a philosophy forum, and people who didn't.

The best analogy I can think of right now is high school gym class where there was always a divide between people who enjoyed sports and actually wanted to play soccer or basketball, and people who didn't want to be there. Usually the people who didn't want to be there were annoyed at being aggressively jostled on the court and the athletic people were annoyed by the people just taking up space out there. This parallels to philosophy, where the name of the game is to argue your claims and beliefs. "A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring"--Wittgenstein

We had this debate on the Philforums too mind you. But I think if you sign up for a boxing match you forfeit the right to object to being fairly punched, and if you post in a philosophy thread you forfeit the right to object to your ideas being harshly criticized and you beliefs said to be nonsensical. Playing chess with someone and then complaining when they take your pieces because you were "arranging them in artful patterns" is actually rude to the person you are playing chess with.

i like dick jokes




wait, what was the topic again

I don't have a feel yet for how this forum is different in terms of discussions.

I came to the Philforum with a particular thought blazing through my mind. In the past I would have shared it with my brother, but he was busy. What I found at Philforum was a community that tended to reward folks who shared insights from the well of philosophy that's thousands of years old now. It inspired me to explore beyond what I previously had... it's still inspiring me as I have a couple of Descartes books coming my way.

About the speech thing... I'm required to self-edit at work. It didn't bother me that obscene language was not allowed on the Philforum: the idea being that the forum welcomed young people and so had a sort of classroom feel.

I find myself in a odd situation now: the expression of obscenities on this forum is bothering me. Ha! I'm not quite sure why. Interesting.

Underneath it all we're the same people. Best wishes!

I don't find a lot of obscenity on A2K, but if you come from a culture of none, I'm sure it will stand out when you see it. Welcome to all the new folks and I hope you find some of the other topics interesting. I learn a lot here.

i wonder what it must be like to have a culture, i mean i'm canadian, i guess i do have a culture, but i never think about it, it's like accents, "i don't have an accent, you do" kind of thing

You don't have to worry about that at all here, there tend to be chatty kinds of threads and then debate threads, and everyone here knows what they are getting into on the debate threads where kid glove treatment certainly is the exception rather than the rule.

So true.

Our own culture is invisible in many ways, until it brushes up against another.

The reservations many of us Phil folk have with this board is the style, presentation, and ambiance we enjoyed. There was a definite emphasis on academic level writing and debate. Some people went so far as to present posts in essay form. Formal expression was awarded prestige. Flippancy was regarded as base an necessary trawling. Many people enjoyed having a place in their lives that was structured and formal. For many people maybe it reminded them of the salad days of college. For other it sharpened skills currently being used in their educations. For whatever reason people endeavored to create a specific style deemed appropriate for desired environment. Some may consider it snooty, but we enjoyed it or we would not have been there.

No one that has bothered to stick around is implying that there is no valuable and challenging conversation here, only that it is different. We'll get used to it, adapt to it, adopt it, reform it, or we'll move on.