The Purpose of the State?

@Night Ripper,

Quote:

Why would I need currency all by myself?

I didn't say you did. It was you who referred to "my money".

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Why would I need currency all by myself?

I didn't say you did. It was you who referred to "my money".

So? I'm referring to all kinds of wealth, property, etc. If you think Disney Dollars aren't currency then you don't know what currency is.

2 Replies

@Night Ripper,

I would wait for a better straw to float by NR. That one looks a bit too fragile to me.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I would wait for a better straw to float by NR. That one looks a bit too fragile to me.

So, in other words, you have nothing of merit to say. Thanks for wasting my time.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

3 - About the naivety of majority´s and Democracy´s the only thing I find honest to say is that if the majority was to really govern there would n´t be any need for State in the first place...and is case to ask why not direct democracy anyway ? Why can´t we vote every decision in the computer age ?

Yes, precisely. And why shouldn't we be restricted to voting what's our damn business. Why do I vote on how much you have to pay in taxes, and why do you vote whether I get a bullet train?

In the end, democracy vs. republic vs. monarchy is a question about how to make decisions collectively, and we don't have to make decisions collectively, we can make them individually. In a republic the mob can't decide that a minority should be killed, it is constitutionally prohibited from doing so. We just have to extend such constitutional protections to other areas, such as the economy.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

I didn't start talking about Disney Dollars as currency. That's a real can of worms. You'll be doing Green Shield stamps next. Rock concert tickets. Milk tokens. The word currency used like that is a complete waste of time.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I didn't start talking about Disney Dollars as currency. That's a real can of worms. You'll be doing Green Shield stamps next. Rock concert tickets. Milk tokens. The word currency used like that is a complete waste of time.

Why? That's what currency is. You have to be fairly brainwashed to believe fiat currency is the only "real" currency. I suppose it's too much to expect you to have ever heard of "American Express Travelers Cheques"?

2 Replies

@Night Ripper,

Anything we accept in return for our services is a currency. A state is not required to do that. In fact, the state is the worst entity to possibly be entrusted with creating money, because it has a monopoly on force and rarely has to consider economic consequences. If we handed monetary creation to Wal-Mart (the largest private company by revenue), we would have a less inflationary money supply than if the state did it.

You didn't respond to my other post.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Quote:

I suppose it's too much to expect you to have ever heard of "American Express Travelers Cheques"?

I have heard of them. I gather they are sold to anybody nowadays. I remember them being "posh". I only travel cerebelluminously. I find places all the same.

Are Disney Dollars traded on the currency markets?

0 Replies

@EmperorNero,

Quote:

Anything we accept in return for our services is a currency.

I once helped a divorcee with some overhanging trees and I readily accepted her rewards. If that was currency what does it say about women?

Quote:

If we handed monetary creation to Wal-Mart (the largest private company by revenue), we would have a less inflationary money supply than if the state did it.

And it wouldn't take long for elections to be for Wal-Mart CEOs. In God we trust.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Anything we accept in return for our services is a currency.

I once helped a divorcee with some overhanging trees and I readily accepted her rewards. If that was currency what does it say about women?

What does it say about women? That they are richer than you are.
(Nobody ever mentions that one when they complain about the gender gap, eh?)

spendius wrote:

Quote:
If we handed monetary creation to Wal-Mart (the largest private company by revenue), we would have a less inflationary money supply than if the state did it.

And it wouldn't take long for elections to be for Wal-Mart CEOs. In God we trust.

Possibly. But that would merely make them the state, catch-22.
The point is that the state is the worst possible entity to be entrusted with creating money, because it is the only entity not subjected to economic consequences. A private company would want to maximize it's profits and preserve a somewhat stable currency to not kill the golden goose, i.e. it's ability to print more currency that is worth anything.

There could be a bunch of different corporate currencies, Wal-Mart Dollars, Apple Dollars, if they inflate we merely change to a more stable one, computers could do it for us.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

That's a bit exhuberant your Divinity. I saw bits of Quo Vadis yesterday during the ad breaks in the Tour de France.

I trust you know that Nero was sentenced to be punished "in the manner of the ancients". He sensibly cut his own throat to avoid it. His dear Poppaea Sabina was a lesson to us all.

0 Replies

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero wrote:

But the bank voluntarily gave you that money, they are the ones who introduce active coercion into your transactions.

Yes they did. You also voluntarily agreed that they could enforce the terms of the loan. If I loan you a screwdriver and you don't give it back, that's theft of my property. That's initiation of force against my property. I am in the right to respond with proportional force if necessary to get my property back.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Why would I need currency all by myself?

I didn't say you did. It was you who referred to "my money".

So? I'm referring to all kinds of wealth, property, etc. If you think Disney Dollars aren't currency then you don't know what currency is.

I think you are confusing a currency with an economy.... Gift giving was the first economy, where the individual gift was the currency... There are honor economies still at work in the world, for where people are universally poor, and there is no money, only honor can serve the same purpose... It is for that reason that the ancients were so prone to killing in defense of honor... Without it they were not only poor, but doomed...

0 Replies

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
3 - About the naivety of majority´s and Democracy´s the only thing I find honest to say is that if the majority was to really govern there would n´t be any need for State in the first place...and is case to ask why not direct democracy anyway ? Why can´t we vote every decision in the computer age ?

Yes, precisely. And why shouldn't we be restricted to voting what's our damn business. Why do I vote on how much you have to pay in taxes, and why do you vote whether I get a bullet train?

In the end, democracy vs. republic vs. monarchy is a question about how to make decisions collectively, and we don't have to make decisions collectively, we can make them individually. In a republic the mob can't decide that a minority should be killed, it is constitutionally prohibited from doing so. We just have to extend such constitutional protections to other areas, such as the economy.

Well; you shold have a vote on your affairs, but more to the point, only you should have a voice in your oown affairs... It is only when your business begins to affect others that they should have a say... When it comes to property, and how much it is taxed, there is always a public interest... First, from our earliest law it is established that the government, meaning, the people, holds ultimate title to this land, and when it is sold to individuals there must be a public good, and it must still pay for its own support.... So if the whole people defend not only their property, and public property, but the property of the rich who cannot defend it alone, then that property must pay for its own defense... There is no ownership free and clear...Ownership of property is not a right, but a privilage...And, property should pay for its defense constantly because paying when the enemy is at the gate is likely to be futile... Law and services to property are a constant expense, but in the defense of property and rights, it is those who have both who should pay, because what they think they own free they own only so long as the state is there to defend...

0 Replies

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

EmperorNero wrote:
But the bank voluntarily gave you that money, they are the ones who introduce active coercion into your transactions.

Yes they did. You also voluntarily agreed that they could enforce the terms of the loan. If I loan you a screwdriver and you don't give it back, that's theft of my property. That's initiation of force against my property. I am in the right to respond with proportional force if necessary to get my property back.

Well, you are justifying your opinion, which I don't really disagree with. The point is that there is no objective mark of what 'initiation of violence' is.
You say that not returning your screwdriver justifies the use of force. That's a moral judgment. Some might say that nothing justifies the use of force, if you are wronged you just have to turn the other cheek.
Others think that the evil capitalist class exploits the worker class, and that justifies these of force, similar to you saying that being stolen from justifies the use of force.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero wrote:

You say that not returning your screwdriver justifies the use of force. That's a moral judgment. Some might say that nothing justifies the use of force, if you are wronged you just have to turn the other cheek.

What's your point? That my opinion is just an opinion? I already know that.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

What's your point? That my opinion is just an opinion? I already know that.

Um... no... my point is, I guess, that you shouldn't just rely on general moral statements like "initiation of violence is wrong and I don't care to defend my ideology in the realm of politics or economics", because there are very different views on what exactly that is, so essentially it saying nothing. If you care for your ideology to ever be implemented in practice, you have to also defend it in specific. If people think it will cause the poor to starve, the rivers to be polluted and their sisters unable to find husbands, they aren't going to accept what you propose.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero wrote:

Night Ripper wrote:
What's your point? That my opinion is just an opinion? I already know that.

Um... no... my point is, I guess, that you shouldn't just rely on general moral statements like "initiation of violence is wrong and I don't care to defend my ideology in the realm of politics or economics", because there are very different views on what exactly that is, so essentially it saying nothing. If you care for your ideology to ever be implemented in practice, you have to also defend it in specific. If people think it will cause the poor to starve, the rivers to be polluted and their sisters unable to find husbands, they aren't going to accept what you propose.

So, someone pro-slavery says "but how will my slaves get jobs without slavery" and I'm supposed to have a 3-point plan just to reject slavery? I don't think so. I think it's better for some slaves to starve than to have slavery.

1 Reply

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper wrote:

So, someone pro-slavery says "but how will my slaves get jobs without slavery" and I'm supposed to have a 3-point plan just to reject slavery? I don't think so. I think it's better for some slaves to starve than to have slavery.

What I mean is that slaves won't actually starve if we abolish slavery, people just think that. And explaining it to them will make them more likely to come to your side than insisting that their position is morally wrong.

1 Reply

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