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Major Question

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 08:53 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;158190 wrote:
What did I mean? You already have the quote right there, would you like me to dissect it for you? I said that the desire is both natural and not immoral. Isn't that clear? Nowhere did I state that what is natural is necessarily moral or vice versa, though you may have incorrectly inferred it. Can we move on now boss? Or should we continue to delve into the non-substantive here... :sarcastic:


As you like. But the natural interpretation of what you wrote would be, "Sexual desire is natural, and so, not immoral". Otherwise, why say them together? And, to be frank, I think that is what you meant, but you are just backpedaling. Anyway, for the record, what is natural need not be moral.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 08:59 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;158195 wrote:
As you like. But the natural interpretation of what you wrote would be, "Sexual desire is natural, and so, not immoral". Otherwise, why say them together? And, to be frank, I think that is what you meant, but you are just backpedaling. Anyway, for the record, what is natural need not be moral.



OK. So let's just have a whole discussion on what kennethamy thinks people mean by their posts, and ignore what the person actually says they mean. That makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for doing us the service, Ken.

Your "natural interpretation" is literally not what I wrote. I've now clarified it for you, though the statement needed no clarification from the get-go. Is there anything else you need help with?
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 09:07 pm
@chopkins,
Pangloss;158190 wrote:
Hey William- It's one thing to play devil's advocate, but its another thing to hijack threads by nitpicking each individual post that someone makes...


Yes, pangloss I know and why I rarely respond to any of his remarks. I think most with the exception of a very few that thrive on stirring sh*t up, are catching on.

As far as my loss Ken, I am tenacious, I never give up on anyone even if I gain nothing from anything they have to offer. You are no exception. You are probably getting off on this statement; well if that's the case, everyone needs something that excites them. Trolls need love too.

William
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 09:08 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;158196 wrote:

William;158198 wrote:
. I think most with the exception of a very few that thrive on stirring sh*t up, are catching on.

Indeed, a glance at my Rep Power is enough to show that right away.
Thanked 1,164 Times in 977 Posts
Rep Power: 23
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 09:26 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;158199 wrote:
--
So glad you have decided you are going to continue to learn as much as you are capable of learning. Wise move. You never know how much you can understand until you try. But try harder, promise me.


Nah, tried that once, it didn't take. One day you will understand that too. It's a waste of energy so I think I will conserve mine now. So until we meet again to engage in your innocuous chatter, bye for now.

William
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 09:28 pm
@William,
William;158203 wrote:
Nah, tried that once, it didn't take. One day you will understand that too. It's a waste of energy so I think I will conserve mine now. So until we meet again to engage in your innocuous chatter, bye for now.

William


Pangloss;158196 wrote:

William;158198 wrote:
. I think most with the exception of a very few that thrive on stirring sh*t up, are catching on.

Indeed, a glance at my Rep Power is enough to show that right away.
Thanked 1,164 Times in 977 Posts
Rep Power: 23
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 09:35 pm
@chopkins,
Lets go back to what is natural, what is moral, and what is wise.
0 Replies
 
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 10:01 pm
@chopkins,
chopkins;157824 wrote:
So I have an internal battle going on, and there really shouldnt be one. Seeing as how i havent started my study of philosophy yet, i was hoping that i could get some feed back on this issue of mine from a philosophic view point on what to do about it because i have no idea what do do.

I am married, I love my wife every much. I would go to the end of the world for her. And yet, I find myself fantasizing about her sister...a lot. This only started a couple months ago, but it is worrisome to me.

Help. Give me opinions.


Occasionally I found and still find an under-aged girl attractive. (High-school not grade-school mind you.) When I was younger I admit I indulged in the fantasy once or twice (some variation of the schoolgirl teacher story for example) but I don't really indulge in that fantasy anymore. The change happened when it occurred to me one day to think of her as my little sister or even my daughter i.e. someone I cared for an wanted to grow up strong, happy and undamaged. And though it is true that she isn't actually my daughter or my little sister I feel I still have that sort of responsibility towards a young girl.

Nowadays when I see an attractive high-school girl in the bloom of her youth I can still appreciate the beauty and attractiveness but that other idea kicks in - the idea of her being a younger sister or a daughter and my responsibility towards her as a member of society, and this keeps that recognition of beauty from becoming depraved and dipping into something more lustful. It's part of growing up I guess.

I think some variation of this might work for you too. Your sister-in-law is a beautiful woman but don't you want her to be strong, happy and undamaged? There is such a thing as a higher desire trumping a lower desire. Our society is perhaps too permissive when it comes to fantasy because I think that many fantasies do at least some damage to the one who is fantasizing even if this is nothing more than alienating the fantasizer from a more authentic reality. You will feel much stronger, happier and undamaged if you listen to your higher desires instead of yielding to the lower ones. Humans are animals, and as such we have instincts, but we are also conscious and aware of ourselves and our thoughts. And perhaps even the higher desires are a form of instinct. So the question is which instinct, which desire, higher or lower will you yield to?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 10:16 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;158213 wrote:
Occasionally I found and still find an under-aged girl attractive. (High-school not grade-school mind you.) When I was younger I admit I indulged in the fantasy once or twice (some variation of the schoolgirl teacher story for example) but I don't really indulge in that fantasy anymore. The change happened when it occurred to me one day to think of her as my little sister or even my daughter i.e. someone I cared for an wanted to grow up strong, happy and undamaged. And though it is true that she isn't actually my daughter or my little sister I feel I still have that sort of responsibility towards a young girl.

Nowadays when I see an attractive high-school girl in the bloom of her youth I can still appreciate the beauty and attractiveness but that other idea kicks in - the idea of her being a younger sister or a daughter and my responsibility towards her as a member of society, and this keeps that recognition of beauty from becoming depraved and dipping into something more lustful. It's part of growing up I guess.

I think some variation of this might work for you too. Your sister-in-law is a beautiful woman but don't you want her to be strong, happy and undamaged? There is such a thing as a higher desire trumping a lower desire. Our society is perhaps too permissive when it comes to fantasy because I think that many fantasies do at least some damage to the one who is fantasizing even if this is nothing more than alienating the fantasizer from a more authentic reality. You will feel much stronger, happier and undamaged if you listen to your higher desires instead of yielding to the lower ones. Humans are animals, and as such we have instincts, but we are also conscious and aware of ourselves and our thoughts. And perhaps even the higher desires are a form of instinct. So the question is which instinct, which desire, higher or lower will you yield to?


I understand what you are saying, but what I do not understand is why you want to teach yourself not to find young girls sexually attractive. They are sexually attractive. Do you fear that unless you think differently you will not be able to control your sexual urges? I very much doubt that is true.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 11:04 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;158219 wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but what I do not understand is why you want to teach yourself not to find young girls sexually attractive. They are sexually attractive. Do you fear that unless you think differently you will not be able to control your sexual urges? I very much doubt that is true.

Well yes, it is often the case that young women under the age of 18 are sexually attractive. There is a difference between recognizing the fact and indulging in fantasy.

Are you familar with Marcuse's concept of repressive desublimation?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 11:17 pm
@kennethamy,
What does the sister-in-law think ? What have you to offer these woman ?
What do you think about polygamie ?
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 11:38 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;158213 wrote:
Occasionally I found and still find an under-aged girl attractive. (High-school not grade-school mind you.) When I was younger I admit I indulged in the fantasy once or twice (some variation of the schoolgirl teacher story for example) but I don't really indulge in that fantasy anymore. The change happened when it occurred to me one day to think of her as my little sister or even my daughter i.e. someone I cared for an wanted to grow up strong, happy and undamaged. And though it is true that she isn't actually my daughter or my little sister I feel I still have that sort of responsibility towards a young girl.


Deckard, I'd be more worried about you if you didn't occasionally find high-school aged girls attractive...

Deckard;158213 wrote:
Humans are animals, and as such we have instincts, but we are also conscious and aware of ourselves and our thoughts. And perhaps even the higher desires are a form of instinct. So the question is which instinct, which desire, higher or lower will you yield to?


What makes one type of desire "higher" and another type "lower"? Hopefully your meaning has to do with something other than physical location on the human anatomy...

The "lower" functions, while perhaps crude in a sense, and shared in common with all animals, unlike our ability to reason, are still just as important. The desire to reproduce is more vital to mankind's survival than logic or anything else.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 11:57 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;158242 wrote:
Deckard, I'd be more worried about you if you didn't occasionally find high-school aged girls attractive...



What makes one type of desire "higher" and another type "lower"? Hopefully your meaning has to do with something other than physical location on the human anatomy...

The "lower" functions, while perhaps crude in a sense, and shared in common with all animals, unlike our ability to reason, are still just as important. The desire to reproduce is more vital to mankind's survival than logic or anything else.


I do wonder if "higher" and "lower" in reference to desire might have some philological reference to anatomy. In this case I don't think I have to go any higher than the heart and I think the heart should always trump the **** though I'm not as sure that the brain should always trump the heart. I often thought it profound that Aristotle thought the heart did the thinking while the brain was just an organ to cool the blood. It makes some kind of poetic sense to believe that. Heart, brain, stomach, ****, liver, *******, etc. each has an important job to do.
0 Replies
 
chopkins
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 02:55 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;158213 wrote:
Occasionally I found and still find an under-aged girl attractive. (High-school not grade-school mind you.) When I was younger I admit I indulged in the fantasy once or twice (some variation of the schoolgirl teacher story for example) but I don't really indulge in that fantasy anymore. The change happened when it occurred to me one day to think of her as my little sister or even my daughter i.e. someone I cared for an wanted to grow up strong, happy and undamaged. And though it is true that she isn't actually my daughter or my little sister I feel I still have that sort of responsibility towards a young girl.

Nowadays when I see an attractive high-school girl in the bloom of her youth I can still appreciate the beauty and attractiveness but that other idea kicks in - the idea of her being a younger sister or a daughter and my responsibility towards her as a member of society, and this keeps that recognition of beauty from becoming depraved and dipping into something more lustful. It's part of growing up I guess.

I think some variation of this might work for you too. Your sister-in-law is a beautiful woman but don't you want her to be strong, happy and undamaged? There is such a thing as a higher desire trumping a lower desire. Our society is perhaps too permissive when it comes to fantasy because I think that many fantasies do at least some damage to the one who is fantasizing even if this is nothing more than alienating the fantasizer from a more authentic reality. You will feel much stronger, happier and undamaged if you listen to your higher desires instead of yielding to the lower ones. Humans are animals, and as such we have instincts, but we are also conscious and aware of ourselves and our thoughts. And perhaps even the higher desires are a form of instinct. So the question is which instinct, which desire, higher or lower will you yield to?


What you just said there is basically what my psychologist said today when i told her about it. But she also went along and added the fact that since they (my wife and her sister) are so close, many of their mannerisms and tendencies may be the same and what I love about my wife, my sub-conscious sees in her sister as well. So, if i can turn that around and make it so any time i start lusting for my sister-in-law I realize that it is just me realizing how much I truly love my wife, I could get past this. Im just a bit skeptical at this point if that would actually work.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 07:10 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;158231 wrote:
Well yes, it is often the case that young women under the age of 18 are sexually attractive. There is a difference between recognizing the fact and indulging in fantasy.

Are you familar with Marcuse's concept of repressive desublimation?


No.

Better than Marcuse, are you familiar with Nabakov's fine novel, Lolita, and the fine film directed by Stanley Kubrick of that same title? (A later film is not nearly so good). Of course, Humbert Humbert, the hero (yes, I mean "hero") went too far, and was finally destroyed by his fatal flaw (what the ancient Greeks called, "harmatia") which, as Aristotle argues in his Poetics is essential to all tragedy, and makes the Greek hero, "an object of fear and pity". (By "fear" Aristotle meant that the hero inspired the fear of becoming like him in the audience). And, by watching a great tragedy (or, in this case, reading about it) the audience (or reader) attains catharsis.


  1. emotional release: an experience or feeling of spiritual release and purification brought about by an intense emotional experience
  2. emotional purification through Greek tragedy: according to Aristotle, a purifying of the emotions that is brought about in the audience of a tragic drama through the evocation of intense fear and pity
  3. psychological purging of complexes: in psychology, the process of bringing to the surface repressed emotions, complexes, and feelings in an effort to identify and relieve them, or the result of this process

Better than psychiatry.
0 Replies
 
chopkins
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2010 01:27 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep wrote:

What does the sister-in-law think ? What have you to offer these woman ?
What do you think about polygamie ?


Been a while since i have viewed this forum page, but problem is ongoing.

As for what my sister in law thinks, she would never do anything to endanger or alter in a negative way her and her sisters relationship (i told her my sister in law what was going on in my head a while back and this was the reply i got).

As to what i have to offer each of them, not sure honestly. My wife obviously sees something in me that she likes and values enough to want to put a significant commitment into. Wasnt really looking at offering anything to her sister. The thoughts i have been having are just about having sex with her. No meaningful relationship.

And last but not least if i was able to marry two women, i dont know what i would do. Not only is it against the law, its also socially unacceptable here. Have i thought about it? not that i remember?.... Like i said, i have only been thinking about a one night stand type deal with her sister, but i know for a fact (because i have been informed by her sister) that it would never happen.

I am very frightened that this could very well be bordering on obsession....
0 Replies
 
 

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