0
   

kill all conceited morons

 
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:21 am
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;159969 wrote:
never actually for one moment addresses the question whether the technical quality of Betamax was better than that of VHS, as the "myth" claims


Then you need to read the article again.

Quote:
Indeed, the main thing that didn't fit was the idea was that Betamax was "technically superior". Standing in a shop at the time, there was absolutely no visible difference in picture quality, and some reviews had found that VHS's quality was superior.
Quote:
Later I found out that Betamax had owned the market, but lost it because Sony got one simple decision wrong. It chose to make smaller, neater tapes that lasted for an hour, whereas the VHS manufacturers used basically the same technology with a bulkier tape that lasted two hours.
Quote:
"And although Betamax playing times were extended, they never caught up with VHS."
So there you have it. Imperceptible quality differences between VHS and Betamax along with VHS's longer playing time clearly makes it technically superior.
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:28 am
@Night Ripper,
I remembered the bit about standing in a shop, which didn't impress me. Sorry, I forgot the bit about "some reviews". It's hardly an informative citation, though. As I said, I'm still none the wiser; at best, I've learned, from a questionable source without references, that the case for Betamax's legendary technical superiority may not be as clear-cut as the legend supposes. The issue of longer playing time is irrelevant, unless the shorter playing time of Betamax cassettes was due to an inherent limitation of their technology, rather than a bad design and marketing decision. If Betamax was restricted to unfeasibly short playing and recording times, then I would agree that would have been a decisive technical argument against its adoption. Do you know?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:30 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;160306 wrote:
Then you need to read the article again.

So there you have it. Imperceptible quality differences between VHS and Betamax along with VHS's longer playing time clearly makes it technically superior.
Dude, he doesn't come with any fact sheet on the speficis on the actual technical data. After all, he directly mention that he can't see any difference between VHS and Betamax, and in the process doesn't say anything about the quality of the machines. Usually the purity of the copper in the components ..etc dictates the quality.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:43 am
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;160308 wrote:
The issue of longer playing time is irrelevant, unless the shorter playing time of Betamax cassettes was due to an inherent limitation of their technology, rather than a bad design and marketing decision.


That's what a technically superior format means, it has better quality or can record longer. For you to say that recording time doesn't matter means you don't understand the issue.

Also, your original claim was that he never addressed these issues. You are clearly wrong since he clearly has addressed them, though of course not to your exacting standards.

---------- Post added 05-05-2010 at 07:43 AM ----------

HexHammer;160309 wrote:
Dude, he doesn't come with any fact sheet on the speficis on the actual technical data. After all, he directly mention that he can't see any difference between VHS and Betamax, and in the process doesn't say anything about the quality of the machines. Usually the purity of the copper in the components ..etc dictates the quality.


So look up the information on your own? I don't see the problem here. If you can prove him wrong do so but I've checked the primary sources and he's on the money.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:45 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;160311 wrote:
So look up the information on your own? I don't see the problem here. If you can prove him wrong do so but I've checked the primary sources and he's on the money.
No? I just state what is commonly accepted, that's the prove itself, if you challenge that, the burden of proof lies on you.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:46 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;160314 wrote:
No? I just state what is commonly accepted, that's the prove itself, if you challenge that, the burden of proof lies on you.


So, since the majority of people commonly accept that a deity exists, the burden of proof lies with me?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:49 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;160315 wrote:
So, since the majority of people commonly accept that a deity exists, the burden of proof lies with me?
I belive the difference lies in scientific claim versus a supersicious claim.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:51 am
@Twirlip,
Twirlip;160308 wrote:
The issue of longer playing time is irrelevant, unless the shorter playing time of Betamax cassettes was due to an inherent limitation of their technology, rather than a bad design and marketing decision.

The playing time is a technical specification of video tapes and VHS were twice as long - therefore twice as good. Whatever the reason Betamax vids were shorter it was "technically" relevant.

Picture quality is also a technical specification. What's clear from the article is that you would have needed a very good screen to notice any difference and some people didn't even think any difference could be perceived, or even thought VHS were better.

So Betamax putatively outperformed in one area according to some people, and were demonstrably worse in another according to everyone.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:51 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;160316 wrote:
I belive the difference lies in scientific claim versus a supersicious claim.


Right, so you've solved the demarcation problem for us, have you?
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:53 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;160314 wrote:
No? I just state what is commonly accepted, that's the prove itself, if you challenge that, the burden of proof lies on you.

Well he did link to an article that laid out the case with plenty of evidential support. Maybe if you actually bothered to read it...

FWIW your claims about German tanks are debatable too.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 06:57 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;160317 wrote:
The playing time is a technical specification of video tapes and VHS were twice as long - therefore twice as good. Whatever the reason Betamax vids were shorter it was "technically" relevant.


Exactly.

Dave Allen;160317 wrote:
Picture quality is also a technical specification. What's clear from the article is that you would have needed a very good screen to notice any difference and some people didn't even think any difference could be perceived, or even thought VHS were better.


Even more, the difference in vertical resolution was only 10 extra lines in Betamax. Unfortunately, this extra resolution of Betamax was dropped quickly to match VHS and enable Betamax tapes to hold more. So even that imperceptible technical superiority was short lived. That's probably where the myth got its start at.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:05 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;160321 wrote:
Even more, the difference in vertical resolution was only 10 extra lines in Betamax. Unfortunately, this extra resolution of Betamax was dropped quickly to match VHS and enable Betamax tapes to hold more. So even that imperceptible technical superiority was short lived. That's probably where the myth got its start at.

I think the myth began with the meme that Betamax failed because they were rubbish.

Which is wrong, and pointing out at that time that Betamax were good products that even - in this one area - outperformed VHS was an interesting point.

However - I think it's now gone too far, and people are too willing to spread the "actually Betamax were better" meme - because the improvement was in a fairly irrelevant area (to the vast majority of viewers), whereas extra playing time (and variety of movies) was more appealing than a barely perceptable picture quality.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:22 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;160325 wrote:
Which is wrong, and pointing out at that time that Betamax were good products that even - in this one area - outperformed VHS was an interesting point.


I don't think it's an interesting point at all, as I mentioned, by the time VHS won, Betamax had already dropped the extra resolution. It just seems misleading to focus on it. That wasn't a point of contention for very long. It came down to recording time alone and it seems as far as technical specifications go, VHS was clearly superior.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:25 am
@TuringEquivalent,
I wouldn't disagree. But I think the meme has sprung from a desire to balance the argument (that Betamax lost because it was without quality).

Which has now gone too far in the other direction (that VHS won despite a lack of quality).

Road to Hell paved with good intent and all that.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:29 am
@Dave Allen,
What were those music tape machines called that failed..?:perplexed:
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:31 am
@TuringEquivalent,
Eight tracks.

Though you could probably say the same about maxi now.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:33 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;160338 wrote:
Eight tracks.

Though you could probably say the same about maxi now.
You dont even see them at car boots anymore. I don't think you could record on them.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:38 am
@TuringEquivalent,
No - I think their selling point was that they produced eight tracks of sound, as opposed to a normal cassette's two.

But nobody cared.

EDIT: Actually that's not true on looking at wiki. They just carried 8 tracks and couldn't rewind, and so cassette tapes became more successful.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 07:42 am
@Dave Allen,
The real pain with eight tracks were that they used a single reel that spun from the inside and rewound on the outside. If your tape machine tried to eat it you could never get the tape back on the reel. Only a machine could fix it. Whereas cassette tapes were just like reel-to-reels and could easily be rewound with a #2 pencil.
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2010 02:45 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;160321 wrote:
Even more, the difference in vertical resolution was only 10 extra lines in Betamax. Unfortunately, this extra resolution of Betamax was dropped quickly to match VHS and enable Betamax tapes to hold more. So even that imperceptible technical superiority was short lived. That's probably where the myth got its start at.

Thank you - that is informative.

---------- Post added 05-05-2010 at 09:48 PM ----------

Dave Allen;160325 wrote:
I think the myth began with the meme that Betamax failed because they were rubbish.

Which is wrong, and pointing out at that time that Betamax were good products that even - in this one area - outperformed VHS was an interesting point.

And thank you for that, which is also informative.

I'm still left not knowing whether Betamax tapes could have been (even though initially they weren't) designed and marketed with a longer recording and playing time; also, how much difference was made by dropping the resolution?

---------- Post added 05-05-2010 at 10:53 PM ----------

Night Ripper;160350 wrote:
The real pain with eight tracks were that they used a single reel that spun from the inside and rewound on the outside. If your tape machine tried to eat it you could never get the tape back on the reel. Only a machine could fix it. Whereas cassette tapes were just like reel-to-reels and could easily be rewound with a #2 pencil.

Ah, that takes me back! I used to be a dab hand at mending compact cassettes. I had a little editing kit, and everything. Used to splice broken tapes, take them out of the box and carefully untangle them, adjust the little screws and paper and plastic inserts to ease friction on stuck tapes. Happy days.
 

Related Topics

What inspired you to write...discuss - Discussion by lostnsearching
It floated there..... - Discussion by Letty
Small Voices - Discussion by Endymion
Rockets Red Glare - Discussion by edgarblythe
Short Story: Wilkerson's Tank - Discussion by edgarblythe
The Virtual Storytellers Campfire - Discussion by cavfancier
1st Annual Able2Know Halloween Story Contest - Discussion by realjohnboy
Literary Agents (a resource for writers) - Discussion by Craven de Kere
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/28/2024 at 10:41:03