@Jebediah,
Jebediah;140621 wrote:Pyrrho;140616 wrote:This actually reminds me of something else. Some years ago, I had a conversation with some people in which some said that they would want their spouse to be very upset if they died. I do not feel that way at all. I love my wife, and I do not want her to suffer. If I die first (and given the difference in our ages, and the fact that statistically women live longer anyway, this is very likely to be the case), I hope that she will be stoic about it and not be upset at all. I think it is a terrible thing that people actually want the ones they supposedly love to suffer. In fact, I tend to think that someone actually wanting you to suffer is a sign the person does not love you. I expect that my wife will be upset if I die first, but I do not want her to be upset, because I love her and do not want her to suffer at all. I hope that if she lives longer than me, that she has a good life, as good as it can be, with as little pain and suffering as possible. I think that that is what it means to really love someone, to want what is best for them, not to want them to suffer. The same goes for real friendship, which is itself a kind of love.
I agree with what you said about Zetherin's example. But for this, what would you think if I said you should want your wife to be joyous if you died, since you love her and being joyous is better than being stoic? Aren't they really just saying they want their spouse to love them deeply?
I want her to live a joyous life after I am dead, but I do not want her to be joyous
that I am dead. I want her to be joyous in spite of my death, not because of it. (Indeed, if she preferred not being around me, she should leave me now rather than wait for my death, which may not happen for many years.)
---------- Post added 03-17-2010 at 02:46 PM ----------
Zetherin;140624 wrote:We seem to agree, Pyrrho.
So, I'm at a loss:
Why do you think that the argument regarding, "Suicide will cause great pain to my loved ones" is necessarily inconsistent, or not sound?
The principle of
never doing an action if it greatly upsets my loved ones is applied inconsistently if the person does not apply it to other things. A consistent application of that principle would be such that they give in to others whenever others care about the situation, no matter how they feel themselves. Thus, for example, one would stick with the religion of one's parents, if religion matters to them, no matter what the truth might be, and no matter how much one thinks it is a false religion. And one would never marry without parental approval, unless the parents did not care; and fill in any other action: if one's family cares very much about it, then one will do as the family wishes, no matter how much one cares about it oneself. As virtually no one takes this idea seriously in cases like these, they ought not take it seriously in the case of suicide.
In other words, if one claims that the supreme principle in guiding one's actions should be that one never greatly upsets one's loved ones by one's actions, then one will need to apply it to everything or one is being inconsistent. If it does not apply to other things, why apply it to suicide?
And if we exclude actions about which the individual cares very much, and which are not actions done to anyone else, then suicide will always be excluded. This is because no one ever kills themselves lightly. As Hume expressed it:
[INDENT][INDENT]I believe that no man ever threw away life, while it was worth keeping. For such is our natural horror of death, that small motives will never be able to reconcile us to it. And tho' perhaps the situation of a man's health or fortune did not seem to require this remedy, we may at least be assured, that any one, who, without apparent reason, has had recourse to it, was curst with such an incurable depravity or gloominess of temper, as must poison all enjoyment, and render him equally miserable as if he had been loaded with the most grievous misfortunes.
Online Library of Liberty - ESSAY IX: OF SUICIDE - Essays Moral, Political, Literary (LF ed.)[/INDENT][/INDENT]
The instinct to live is too strong to be overcome by trifles. Therefore, whenever someone commits suicide, it is always a matter of extreme importance to the person doing it.
Then if we apply my principles to the action, the conclusion is that the person is right to not be so concerned about the opinions of others, as the person isn't doing anything to them (excepting cases of obligations, though even those are always limited), and so the opinions of others are of less importance than their own opinion of the matter. If it were something done to someone else, or if it were a matter about which one does not care, then it would be different, but it is not a case of something done to someone else, and it is always a matter about which one cares greatly.
Zetherin;140624 wrote: In considering whether to kill myself or not, I would consider the feelings of others, particularly my mother. As I love her, I do not want her to feel pain, or at least as little pain as possible. And I know that, in my case (again, I know that you can present other cases where this is not so), my death would be absolutely tragic to my mother, more than anything else. And, so, it seems to me convincing: One reason I would not kill myself is because of the pain it would cause my mother.
It may be
a reason to not kill yourself, but you would have a hard time convincing me that it is
the reason you don't kill yourself. I suspect that if you felt sufficiently strongly to really want to kill yourself, you would find that motive insufficient to stop you. It may, however, be used by some as a rationalization for their own fear of killing themselves, so that they may feel that they are being virtuous for considering others when the reality is that they lack the nerve to kill themselves.
I would ask you if you want to kill yourself or not, but I want to keep this as a philosophical discussion, not a discussion about your life, and it is none of my damn business whether you want to kill yourself or not. But it does make it difficult to discuss if you are going to use yourself as an example of this. I will say this, however: If concern for your mother's feelings on the matter is stopping you from killing yourself, you must not want to kill yourself so very much. I presume you do not live your life totally in order to please your mother, so that when it is a matter of great importance to you, you act according to your preferences rather than purely out of concern for her feelings. And if you do live your life totally in order to please your mother, if you are an adult, I strongly recommend that you reconsider that idea for your own sake. (I mean that as a general principle, not merely about suicide specifically.)
Zetherin;140624 wrote: Quote:I think it depends upon how much you wanted to date her. I do not know if you are married or not, but I can tell you this: If a friend had been in love with my wife before I started dating her, and I had done as you have done, it would have been the biggest mistake of my life. As it is, as far as I know, no friend of mine was in love with her when I started dating her (the fools!).
Yes, I suppose it does depend on that. It also depends on how much I value the friendship with said person, too. My example was assuming that I was not in love with the girl, it was just a desire with no emotional attachment. I should have been more clear.
But, from a more general perspective, I am not sure if I would choose the girl over a friend, even if I was in love with the girl. It really depends on the friendship and the girl. I have no general conclusion when it comes to this.
I think you are writing about this in a bad way. A girl is not a thing to be owned. Her feelings are very relevant to the issue. If she knows you and does not care for you, then trying to date her would be a bad idea. If, however, she loves you and you love her and if you would be good for each other, in rejecting her you adversely affect both your life and hers, not just yours. And I don't think a real friend would want you to stay apart if that were the case, so I don't believe it is EVER a choice between the love of a good woman and having a real friend. If he wants you to throw away happiness, he is not your friend, no matter what he says or you think. And if he does not want her to be happy either, then he does not really love her, and most likely regards her as an object to be owned and possessed, rather than as a person with feelings. So I think you would be making a very bad choice if you rejected love for what you are calling friendship.
