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9 year old suicide

 
 
Three dog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 09:41 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;123914 wrote:
You never asked. Instead, you preferred to quibble with me in a rather strange, and clearly unproductive way.


Stop being Socrates.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 08:48 pm
@Three dog,
Three_dog;124888 wrote:
Stop being Socrates.


Wish I was Socrates, he was a brilliant guy.
0 Replies
 
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 09:24 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;123735 wrote:
I mean that whether good or bad things happen to us will largely determine the kind of life we are going to live. And what happens to us is largely not in our control. And no amount of analysis or self-examination (whatever those are) will matter.


That's not really true.

It doesn't go: bad thing happens --> unhappiness

It goes: bad thing happens --> belief about that thing --> unhappiness/other

Our beliefs and feeling have an effect on whether the events (which we can't control sometimes) make us unhappy or not. And our thoughts can effect our beliefs and feelings.

This is why therapy can be effective, and why 9 year olds shouldn't commit suicide.
LittleMathYou
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 07:43 pm
@Karpowich,
I think a 9 year old killing himself is a good representation of suicide as a whole. Selfish,short-sighted, and always looking for an escape. Although it seems insensitive for me to say this, I think we just need to realize that those things are apart of deciding to end your life.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:03 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;123711 wrote:
I do not understand why people would be surprised that a nine year old might not feel that life is not worth living any more than someone of a different age.
I think that one of the surprising things is that a nine year old has the resources and know-how to succeed in killing themself.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 11:48 pm
@Karpowich,
I have suffered from depression for as long as I can remember, so I think I have a good idea of how this young boy might have felt. I had the good fortune ,in my early childhood,to read a book called just around the corner. Simple story about the many things that you could imagine being just around the corner. This simple story gave me a philosophy of hope that has carried me through some very hard times, and works for me yet today.
How sad that today we find so little hope being projected through the many media available to us.
I can't say what went so wrong for this child that he could find no hope for the future, it is a tragedy that seems so unneccesary.
From my personal experience it does seem that the responsibility fell entirely on myself for finding my own hope in life, but there may have been other factors of which I am not aware. My family is also very dysfunctional but I am aware that beneath this there truly is love.
I do believe that suicide remains one of the most selfish act one can commit.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:12 am
@wayne,
wayne;140161 wrote:

I do believe that suicide remains one of the most selfish act one can commit.

Ayn Rand and her followers would have us believe that selfishness is a virtue.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:24 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;140174 wrote:
Ayn Rand and her followers would have us believe that selfishness is a virtue.


I've not read any ayn rand, but I don't think I'll be subscribing to her phlosophy anytime soon.
no thts not a typo :bigsmile:

Sheee's creeepy
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 11:03 am
@LittleMathYou,
LittleMathYou;140083 wrote:
I think a 9 year old killing himself is a good representation of suicide as a whole. Selfish,short-sighted, and always looking for an escape. Although it seems insensitive for me to say this, I think we just need to realize that those things are apart of deciding to end your life.

9 year olds are entitled to be "selfish" and "short-sighted".

And as for "looking for an escape": drapetomania used to be considered to be a mental disease, which peculiarly afflicted slaves.
0 Replies
 
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 11:26 am
@LittleMathYou,
LittleMathYou;140083 wrote:
I think a 9 year old killing himself is a good representation of suicide as a whole. Selfish,short-sighted, and always looking for an escape. Although it seems insensitive for me to say this, I think we just need to realize that those things are apart of deciding to end your life.


It is funny that people who stay alive because they want to, call people "selfish" who kill themselves because they want to. (It is like those who have children because they want children calling childless couples selfish for not having children because they don't want to have children.)

And it is absurd to call a solution to all of life's problems forever a "short-sighted" solution. The 9 year old could not possibly have come up with any other solution to his problems that would have been so complete and long lasting.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 11:42 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;140305 wrote:
It is funny that people who stay alive because they want to, call people "selfish" who kill themselves because they want to. (It is like those who have children because they want children calling childless couples selfish for not having children because they don't want to have children.)


I don't think it is like that. Those people are wrong because the others not having children doesn't affect them. But committing suicide does have a huge effect on the people who care about that person.

Quote:
And it is absurd to call a solution to all of life's problems forever a "short-sighted" solution. The 9 year old could not possibly have come up with any other solution to his problems that would have been so complete and long lasting.


It's said to be short sighted because people can recover and live a happy life in the future. But they can't always see that.
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:00 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;140307 wrote:
I don't think it is like that. Those people are wrong because the others not having children doesn't affect them.



Whether people have children or not affects the population, and that does affect you. Since we have more than enough people in the world now, the reality is that having children because you want them is more selfish than not having them because you don't want them. But this is going off topic.


Jebediah;140307 wrote:
But committing suicide does have a huge effect on the people who care about that person.



Pretty much everything you do has an effect on those who care about you. But that does not mean that others have a right to run your life for you. You are (or should be) free to ruin your life if you want to do so. Many people do ruin their lives in various ways, and yet usually these things are not thought of in the same way as suicide. If I were to decide to do basically nothing but drink too much for the rest of my life, how do you think that would affect those who care about me? Do you seriously believe that that would be better for them than killing myself quickly? Do you believe that I should have the right to decide for myself if I will do basically nothing but drink or not?


Jebediah;140307 wrote:
It's said to be short sighted because people can recover and live a happy life in the future. But they can't always see that.


And they can also lead long, miserable lives as well, though those who argue against suicide typically can't see that obvious fact. Many people do live long horrible lives, and they could have avoided living long horrible lives by cutting their lives short. Really, suicide is a better choice than many choices people have made, so it is absurd to condemn it more than those worse choices.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:34 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;140310 wrote:
Whether people have children or not affects the population, and that does affect you. Since we have more than enough people in the world now, the reality is that having children because you want them is more selfish than not having them because you don't want them. But this is going off topic.


Those kids will pay my social security (supposedly). Overpopulation doesn't seem like a pressing issue.
Quote:

Pretty much everything you do has an effect on those who care about you. But that does not mean that others have a right to run your life for you. You are (or should be) free to ruin your life if you want to do so. Many people do ruin their lives in various ways, and yet usually these things are not thought of in the same way as suicide. If I were to decide to do basically nothing but drink too much for the rest of my life, how do you think that would affect those who care about me? Do you seriously believe that that would be better for them than killing myself quickly? Do you believe that I should have the right to decide for myself if I will do basically nothing but drink or not?
Sure, you generally have the right to do what you like, assuming you are in your right mind. If you were under the influence of a powerful hallucinogen, and were going to kill yourself, it would be right for me to stop you though. And if the circumstances of a persons suicide are similar enough, we are justified in stopping them.

Shouldn't we consider the effect our actions will have on others? It doesn't necessarily outweight our wants, but it should have some weight.


Quote:
And they can also lead long, miserable lives as well, though those who argue against suicide typically can't see that obvious fact. Many people do live long horrible lives, and they could have avoided living long horrible lives by cutting their lives short. Really, suicide is a better choice than many choices people have made, so it is absurd to condemn it more than those worse choices.
I should admit that I have zero personal experience with suicide or even major depression. I can see the argument against it though. Depression is not an entirely rational state. They cannot necessarily judge accurately whether they will have an unhappy life or not. Especially an 9 years old.

In some cases people are justified in committing suicide. I don't entirely understand the "it's selfish" angle, now that I think about it. If people are in a state of mind where they are willing to kill themselves, it seems silly to accuse them of deliberately spurning the feelings of others.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:39 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;140305 wrote:
It is funny that people who stay alive because they want to, call people "selfish" who kill themselves because they want to. (It is like those who have children because they want children calling childless couples selfish for not having children because they don't want to have children.)


I'm pretty sure that people that don't want to have children also have non-selfish reasons, such as not wanting to bring a child into a world with dwindling resources.
0 Replies
 
Twirlip
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 12:43 pm
@Karpowich,
There should be, and apparently there is, an entire field in which the suicide of a 9 year old child might be given its proper significance. Google returns 1,830,000 hits for the phrase "philosophy of childhood", and perhaps we should follow some of them up, such as this one, for instance:
The Philosophy of Childhood (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
It seems to me to be contrary to common sense, to say nothing of common decency, to apply concepts of morality, freedom, rationality, and realism which are appropriate only to adults (and doubtfully even to them) to the case of a child.

---------- Post added 03-16-2010 at 06:49 PM ----------

Quote:
I don't entirely understand the "it's selfish" angle, now that I think about it.
I forced myself to stay alive for years because I had a daughter to care for. (This is sometimes still the only reason.) So the accusation of "selfishness" makes some sense, in some cases. It's damn hard to see how it applies to a 9 year old, though.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 01:00 pm
@Karpowich,
Jebediah wrote:

In some cases people are justified in committing suicide. I don't entirely understand the "it's selfish" angle, now that I think about it. If people are in a state of mind where they are willing to kill themselves, it seems silly to accuse them of deliberately spurning the feelings of others.


First, you are assuming that to consider suicide, you must be irrational. This I don't think is correct. There are cirumstances of suffering where I personally would commit suicide, and I am considering this rationally (as far as I can tell). And, I think, if I had committed suicide because of my suffering, in these certain cirumstances, I would be being rational. And, as you say, justified.

In regards to the selfishness of suicide, yes, I believe some suicide cases are selfish. If I were a single father of three small children, and I one night got depressed and committed suicide, I think that that would be a selfish act. My depression does place me in an altered state, sure, but I should, at this point in my children's lives, place their wants and needs before mine. I believe I should be strong and mature enough to not abandon my family simply because of a fleeting feeling. Don't you?

Pyrrho wrote:
Pretty much everything you do has an effect on those who care about you. But that does not mean that others have a right to run your life for you. You are (or should be) free to ruin your life if you want to do so. Many people do ruin their lives in various ways, and yet usually these things are not thought of in the same way as suicide. If I were to decide to do basically nothing but drink too much for the rest of my life, how do you think that would affect those who care about me? Do you seriously believe that that would be better for them than killing myself quickly? Do you believe that I should have the right to decide for myself if I will do basically nothing but drink or not?


Sure, most people have the freedom to **** up their lives if they want to. So what? This doesn't mean that it isn't inconsiderate or immature to do so at times. Sometimes you have responsibility, Pyrrho.
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 01:08 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;140321 wrote:
...

Sure, most people have the freedom to **** up their lives if they want to. So what? This doesn't mean that it isn't inconsiderate or immature to do so at times. Sometimes you have responsibility, Pyrrho.


Yes, but suicide is not a special case of this. The arguments that people typically use against suicide are so far reaching that usually the person making the argument would never accept the full consequences of their own pretended position. And that means that they are wrong, no matter what the truth of the matter is, because they are being inconsistent in the application of the principles that they put forth.

For an analysis of the typical arguments, see:

Online Library of Liberty - ESSAY IX: OF SUICIDE - Essays Moral, Political, Literary (LF ed.)
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;140322 wrote:
Yes, but suicide is not a special case of this. The arguments that people typically use against suicide are so far reaching that usually the person making the argument would never accept the full consequences of their own pretended position. And that means that they are wrong, no matter what the truth of the matter is, because they are being inconsistent in the application of the principles that they put forth.

For an analysis of the typical arguments, see:

Online Library of Liberty - ESSAY IX: OF SUICIDE - Essays Moral, Political, Literary (LF ed.)


There's a lot goin' on in the article you just posted. Perhaps we could focus on one or more arguments which you find inconsistent, or which you do not find sound for whatever reason.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 01:24 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;140321 wrote:
First, you are assuming that to consider suicide, you must be irrational. This I don't think is correct. There are cirumstances of suffering where I personally would commit suicide, and I am considering this rationally (as far as I can tell). And, I think, if I had committed suicide because of my suffering, in these certain cirumstances, I would be being rational. And, as you say, justified.


In some cases it is. Older people and people in chronic pain, people with no future ahead of them. Mostly though, they are in a highly abnormal state of mind, right? I don't think depression brings with it a realistic view of the future.

Quote:
In regards to the selfishness of suicide, yes, I believe some suicide cases are selfish. If I were a single father of three small children, and I one night got depressed and committed suicide, I think that that would be a selfish act. My depression does place me in an altered state, sure, but I should, at this point in my children's lives, place their wants and needs before mine. I believe I should be strong and mature enough to not abandon my family simply because of a fleeting feeling. Don't you?


That's very true, I hadn't considered the "people relying on you" angle.
0 Replies
 
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 01:28 pm
@Karpowich,
Karpowich;123686 wrote:
There was recently a story on CNN about a 9 year old boy who hung himself in the bathroom of his elementary school because his family was dysfunctional. My question is whether you think this is an isolated incident or that family life has become so meaningless and so undervalued in today's society that children under the age of 10 feel the need to take their own life? Unfortunately I don't have the article, but I'll try and do some digging and find it.


The focus of the discussion so far has been on the individual choice of suicide but I think the spirit of the OP is more about suicide, in this case of a 9 year old, as a symptom of some greater social malaise. This question cannot be answered by focusing on the isolated individual choice though focusing on the isolated individual choice is an easy way to avoid the issue of a (possible) larger societal problem.
0 Replies
 
 

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