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Definition of Reality

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:02 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127525 wrote:
Well then I guess I assume too much from those who read what I write. Thats what intrinsically referred to. If something has intrinsic meaning, then that meaning is necessary. Words don't have necessary meaning, their meanings are contingent upon what the speaker is trying to convey.

Whether I say something figuratively or literally I am still attempting to convey the same meaning. You seem to be implying that because I say something figuratively that it somehow makes it mean less.


If the speaker tried to convey that he had two eggs for breakfast by saying that Mars is the fourth planet, I am afraid he has not done very well, since "Mars is the fourth planet" does not convey that he had two eggs for breakfast, since it does not mean that in English. What do you think? And if that is figurative language then, yes, it does mean less than does, "I had two eggs for breakfast" if the speaker was trying to convey that. A lot less.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:03 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127517 wrote:
Concepts can become exteriorly actualized.


Yes. And then we call them "objects".
I'm an artist. I do this all the time.
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:05 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;127530 wrote:
Yes. And then we call them "objects".
I'm an artist. I do this all the time.


So that means that the concept of the object is no longer there simply because it is now an object?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:08 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127531 wrote:
So that means that the concept of the object is no longer there simply because it is now an object?


A concept can become an object of a different concept. For example, the concept of eggs, is the object of the concept of the concept of eggs.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:09 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;127530 wrote:
Yes. And then we call them "objects".
I'm an artist. I do this all the time.
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:09 pm
@kennethamy,
TickTockMan;127530 wrote:
Yes. And then we call them "objects".
I'm an artist. I do this all the time.


kennethamy;127529 wrote:
If the speaker tried to convey that he had two eggs for breakfast by saying that Mars is the fourth planet, I am afraid he has not done very well, since "Mars is the fourth planet" does not convey that he had two eggs for breakfast, since it does not mean that in English. What do you think? And if that is figurative language then, yes, it does mean less than does, "I had two eggs for breakfast" if the speaker was trying to convey that. A lot less.


Words have meaning because of the context you use them. If you randomly say "mars is the fourth planet from the sun" then they may or may not make sense depending on the context of the situation.

If my friends and I are making a scale of the solar system using eggs, I'm sure one could imagine a possible context where it would be appropriate to convey the meaning of "eating two eggs for breakfast" by saying "mars is the 4th planet from the sun."

The key to meaning is context!

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 12:14 PM ----------

kennethamy;127532 wrote:
A concept can become an object of a different concept. For example, the concept of eggs, is theobject of the concept of the concept of eggs.


If concepts can become objects and objects can become concepts, would it not be easier to save a step and say objects are concepts and concepts are objects?

Why must one attempt to turn everything into objects, it seems the meaning can be conveyed just as easily whether you call an a egg a concept or an object?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:15 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127534 wrote:
Words have meaning because of the context you use them. If you randomly say "mars is the fourth planet from the sun" then they may or may not make sense depending on the context of the situation.

If my friends and I are making a scale of the solar system using eggs, I'm sure one could imagine a possible context where it would be appropriate to convey the meaning of "eating two eggs for breakfast" by saying "mars is the 4th planet from the sun."

The key to meaning is context!


Go ahead and imagine it. The sentence, "Mars is the fourth planet" does not mean "I had two eggs for breakfast" in English. It is strange that I have to tell you that. Of course, someone might intend that sentence to mean that, as in a code. But that doesn't show it means that, does it. Intending to mean something with a sentence is very different from meaning it. It isn't up to some particular person what words mean. Words mean what fluent people collectively mean by them. The fact that I may use a sentence to convey something in a code doesn't mean that the sentence means what I intend it to mean in a code.
TickTockMan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;127533 wrote:


If you say "one egg" I would assume you are referring to the egg as the object. If you're asking me to guess what number you're thinking of, I don't know. Five?
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:17 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127521 wrote:
I didn't say they are different facets of a larger concept, I am saying they are the concept. There is nothing larger than being or perception or existence. They are all necessary and unconditional.


... then I think you're using the wrong words to express what you mean ... if each of these presents a different face of a thing and at the same time each are the thing, then this thing is not a concept ... perhaps "concept" is the closest word to what you are trying to convey, but I think you're going to run into the same problem Schopenhauer ran into when he made the poor choice of "will" as a name ... but even with a better word choice, I think the fact that this thing you are speaking of appears to break all the rules of mereology (i.e., "being" is at once both the thing and a part of the thing, and the same for "perception", et al., while each remains different from the other) renders it pretty mystical - it sounds more like a Zen koan that is intended to make you think, than an actual claim about the nature of reality ...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:20 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127540 wrote:
Go ahead and imagine it. The sentence, "Mars is the fourth planet" does not mean "I had two eggs for breakfast" in English. It is strange that I have to tell you that. Of course, someone might intend that sentence to mean that, as in a code. But that doesn't show it means that, does it. Intending to mean something with a sentence is very different from meaning it. It isn't up to some particular person what words mean. Words mean what fluent people collectively mean by them. The fact that I may use a sentence to convey something in a code doesn't mean that the sentence means what I intend it to mean in a code.
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:21 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;127540 wrote:
Go ahead and imagine it. The sentence, "Mars is the fourth planet" does not mean "I had two eggs for breakfast" in English. It is strange that I have to tell you that. Of course, someone might intend that sentence to mean that, as in a code. But that doesn't show it means that, does it. Intending to mean something with a sentence is very different from meaning it. It isn't up to some particular person what words mean. Words mean what fluent people collectively mean by them. The fact that I may use a sentence to convey something in a code doesn't mean that the sentence means what I intend it to mean in a code.


If my friend and I collectively understand the meaning of a word to be a certain way, that is in fact what gives it meaning. That is the nature of what we refer to as "inside jokes." They will not be funny to everyone because they only have a collective meaning those who understand the underlying meaning of the joke.

Would you say that because I tell someone an inside joke, that it is intrinsically not funny because not everyone who understands English will not find humor in it?

I find most of my friends inside jokes quite funny, and I don't believe that makes me unreasonable. Therefore, the meaning conveyed by the joke is contextual and not intrinsic.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 12:24 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;127546 wrote:


Our friend Kenneth tends to be operating under the assumption of a tyranny existing over words.

Freedom for language!! :sarcastic:
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:28 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127547 wrote:
If my friend and I collectively understand the meaning of a word to be a certain way, that is in fact what gives it meaning. That is the nature of what we refer to as "inside jokes." They will not be funny to everyone because they only have a collective meaning those who understand the underlying meaning of the joke.

Would you say that because I tell someone an inside joke, that it is intrinsically not funny because not everyone who understands English will not find humor in it?

I find most of my friends inside jokes quite funny, and I don't believe that makes me unreasonable. Therefore, the meaning conveyed by the joke is contextual and not intrinsic.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 12:24 PM ----------



Our friend Kenneth tends to be operating under the assumption of a tyranny existing over words.

Freedom for language!! :sarcastic:


...The common step is not in words but on the form in witch they relate to each other...the TAO...the WAY...:bigsmile: thus a similar way between sentences makes similar meaning...

...a word alone in the universe means nothing...
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 12:32 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;127550 wrote:
...The common step is not in words but on the form in witch they relate to each other...the TAO...the WAY...:bigsmile:


Very true, relatedness is what allows for rationality. If words were separate, than it would be impossible to form a coherent rational sentence.

It is interesting how you use the word form, as Plato also understood the necessity for the relationships of forms. His entire epistemology was founded upon it.

I guess the East and the West are not so different after all??
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:08 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;127563 wrote:


What is the extent of your knowledge concerning hermeneutics? It seems to be the general theme of what you are conveying.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:24 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;127565 wrote:
What is the extent of your knowledge concerning hermeneutics? It seems to be the general theme of what you are conveying.


...Formally Basic...as in most subjects...(I peak here and there and relate)

...Most of this comes on my on thinking, and some general knowledge, plus my well visible obsession in establishing a general circular relating principle to everything through One and just One fundamental Nature...this is my drive.

Now I try to be to the best of my ability coherent top to bottom...(my poor memory is the problem most of the time, so I steak with fundamental Ideas)
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:31 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;127567 wrote:
...Formally Basic...as in most subjects...(I peak here and there and relate)

...Most of this comes on my on thinking, and some general knowledge, plus my well visible obsession in establishing a general circular relating principle to everything through One and just One fundamental Nature...this is my drive.

Now I try to be to the best of my ability coherent top to bottom...(my poor memory is the problem most of the time, so I steak with fundamental Ideas)


Well I would suggest looking into it if you have the time. Hans-Georg Gadamer wrote an amazing account of the power of hermeneutics in his book truth and method.

Amazon.com: Truth and Method (9780826405852): Hans-Georg Gadamer: Books

The concept is so similar to what you were describing that I was almost sure thats what you were referring to. Its basic concern is with the use of language in different contexts, and the relationships that exist between past and current contexts. It relies on a circular meaning of existence rather than the linear one that most people adhere to today.

For drawing upon merely your own memory, you seem to have a very fine philosophical understanding of many concepts which I have trouble understanding even after reading about them.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...some members of this forum seem to neglect the rationality of any theorie as long it is not presented in the "proper" formal way...it saddens me...
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:36 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;127570 wrote:
...some members of this forum seem to neglect the rationality of any theorie as long it is not presented in the "proper" formal way...it saddens me...


One cannot blame them. Perspectives are a very difficult thing to change. People who are raised to believe that the world exists a certain way, no matter how irrational it may be, have a very hard time conceptualizing the mere possibility that there are other ways. It is quite frightening to them.

Therefore, all we can do is try do ease the transition as slow as possible and hope to change as many perspectives as we can along the way.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:38 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...so often someone says to me that someone wrote something about what i just said, that I gave up already in discovering something truly new...

...well at least I get there on my one, so its not that bad...

(thanks for the reference) :a-ok: I will get to it !

MMP2506;127571 wrote:
One cannot blame them. Perspectives are a very difficult thing to change. People who are raised to believe that the world exists a certain way, no matter how irrational it may be, have a very hard time conceptualizing the mere possibility that there are other ways. It is quite frightening to them.

Therefore, all we can do is try do ease the transition as slow as possible and hope to change as many perspectives as we can along the way.
 

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