xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 02:19 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;108173 wrote:
Xris:
Seems to me its a good thing that you aren;t a mod, being that the OP questions the definition of thus making a dictionary definition only a small part of the thread.
But these repetitive circular arguments give me the screaming ad dabs. It becomes obvious to all those observing an entente is impossible and if left to its natural course would drip, drip forever. It was spawned from another debate, on the self same argument and that thread redefined eternity.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 02:32 pm
@xris,
LOL Xris:
I agree about the repetition, hence my 100 post rule, everything that can be said has been said by then and I ditch the thread. In general I lose interest after 3 posts.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 04:39 pm
@xris,
xris;108163 wrote:
If i was a mod ide close this for being totally silly. If you cant agree on the definition of evil , just look it up in the concise English dictionary and leave it at that. It does not admit it to be malicious nor deny it. So prefix any definition with those terms. I think it to be the intent but if that is not acceptable, so be it...lets move on please...pretty please..


But those who hold that the problem of evil is not about natural (impersonal) evils, are simply mistaken. I have already quoted from the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy which in its discussion of the problem of evil, states that there are two kinds of evil, moral and non-moral. So that seems to me to be settled. The only question is what it is that leads anyone to think that the only evil is moral evil. And, that is what was being discussed. I don't see why you think that is a silly question. It is rather interesting. And I have offered several explanations, and so have others.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 08:44 am
@kennethamy,
Its not silly just bleeding boring after an eternity of disagreement.Nothing new has been said in the last two dozen posts. Dosen if our phonetic cousin would have their way..Dosen off, the verb to sleep or to count to twelve.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 08:59 am
@xris,
xris;108323 wrote:
Its not silly just bleeding boring after an eternity of disagreement.Nothing new has been said in the last two dozen posts. Dosen if our phonetic cousin would have their way..Dosen off, the verb to sleep or to count to twelve.


Apparently, some others are not bored, but interested. The question is why people keep insisting that only moral evil is evil.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:10 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;108327 wrote:
Apparently, some others are not bored, but interested. The question is why people keep insisting that only moral evil is evil.
The concept of evil for the majority of people is in the intent. The intention to harm is seen as an evil act. I know you see it as another word for bad , if thats your perspective good for you. Now do you want every one to think like you, or understand your perspective? I understood your point of view after two posts and the objections to your view. All that's happened since is a repetition of stated views, nothing new.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:21 am
@xris,
xris;108334 wrote:
The concept of evil for the majority of people is in the intent. The intention to harm is seen as an evil act. I know you see it as another word for bad , if thats your perspective good for you. Now do you want every one to think like you, or understand your perspective? I understood your point of view after two posts and the objections to your view. All that's happened since is a repetition of stated views, nothing new.


I was discussing it in the context of the philosophical and theological problem of evil. How people use the word, "evil" is not relevant to that. "Evil" in that context covers both moral and non-moral evil. When I discuss the philosophical problem of "evil" I discuss it with the understanding about how philosophers and theologians have discussed it. But a lot of ordinary people would understand that having cancer is an evil, even if having cancer is not evil. One you make it, people often see the difference between calling something evil, and calling is an evil. Between the word, "evil" being used as an adjective, and it's being used as a noun. I am using it as a noun. Not as an adjective.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:26 am
@kennethamy,
I understand, honest i do.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:30 am
@xris,
xris;108349 wrote:
I understand, honest i do.


Then how can you disagree?
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 10:41 am
@IntoTheLight,
To experience pain or to experience suffering is a subjective judgment and a subjective experience. To make "evil" synonymous with "bad" is to substitute one form of value judgment for another. In the end there are no "objective" criteria for "evil" it is a value judgment about better or worse outcomes or experiences.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:05 am
@prothero,
prothero;108373 wrote:
To experience pain or to experience suffering is a subjective judgment and a subjective experience. To make "evil" synonymous with "bad" is to substitute one form of value judgment for another. In the end there are no "objective" criteria for "evil" it is a value judgment about better or worse outcomes or experiences.


The experience of pain or suffering is, of course, subjective, since only the person in pain, or the sufferer can feel the experience. But that does not mean that the fact that a person is suffering or in pain is subjective. It is an objective judgment that a person whose arm has just been cut off is in pain and is suffering. Could you possibly doubt that he is? To say that pain and suffering are evils is only to say that it is a bad thing to suffer and to be in pain. I did not say that pain and suffering are evil. I said they were evils. That is, what people do not want to happen to them, their loved ones, or, indeed anyone. Don't you agree that is true? It is important to distinguish "evil" being used as an adjective, and "evil" being used as a noun. Disease is not evil, but it is an evil.
0 Replies
 
Camerama
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:26 am
@IntoTheLight,
Yes but that's just semantic. There has to be some objective standard for "evil" outside of linguistics. As a noun, evil is defined by intrinsic "evil" composition. Evil is an objective concept independent of language. I believe evil is a man made concept and doesn't exist in nature. It is derived from human transgression against natural law. Imagine a world without people, could you apply evil to anything? No. Evil is non-existent in a world of animals. Animals, who act on the range of minutes, who have no rational faculty, who have only the sense of being not becoming, and only the means of subsisting not expanding(cognitively) cannot be deemed evil. Evil is not natural, it is not rational. It is the product of man's capacity to forsake nature and reason.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:33 am
@Camerama,
Camerama;108381 wrote:
Yes but that's just semantic. There has to be some objective standard for "evil" outside of linguistics. As a noun, evil is defined by intrinsic "evil" composition. Evil is an objective concept independent of language. I believe evil is a man made concept and doesn't exist in nature. It is derived from human transgression against natural law. Imagine a world without people, could you apply evil to anything? No. Evil is non-existent in a world of animals. Animals, who act on the range of minutes, who have no rational faculty, who have only the sense of being not becoming, and only the means of subsisting not expanding(cognitively) cannot be deemed evil. Evil is not natural, it is not rational. It is the product of man's capacity to forsake nature and reason.


It is semantic. But it is not just semantic. I said nothing about whether "evil was an objective concept". I just pointed out that people (and certainly philosophers and theologians) distinguish between moral and non-moral evils. Given that bad things happen to people (and I don't see how that can be denied" there are two kinds of bad things. Bad things done intentionally by people against other people, and, then, bad things that simply happen to people. Like accidents, and disease. Don't you agree? I don't see how anyone could not. It is just an obvious fact.
re turner jr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:44 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;108382 wrote:
It is semantic. But it is not just semantic. I said nothing about whether "evil was an objective concept". I just pointed out that people (and certainly philosophers and theologians) distinguish between moral and non-moral evils. Given that bad things happen to people (and I don't see how that can be denied" there are two kinds of bad things. Bad things done intentionally by people against other people, and, then, bad things that simply happen to people. Like accidents, and disease. Don't you agree? I don't see how anyone could not. It is just an obvious fact.


I believe the overarching word Evil, can be broken down into different categories (e.g. Moral, Natural, etc...) So in answering the question 'Define Evil?' the definition would need to incorporate both... Right?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:48 am
@re turner jr,
re_turner_jr;108384 wrote:
I believe the overarching word Evil, can be broken down into different categories (e.g. Moral, Natural, etc...) So in answering the question 'Define Evil?' the definition would need to incorporate both... Right?



Yes. As I suggested, suffering and pain. And suffering and pain are bad things that happen to people (and, I suppose, animals).
Camerama
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 12:06 pm
@kennethamy,
Accidents aren't evil. There has to be a distinction between evil and accidents. Think about it logically, what is an accident? A car crash, an earthquake, etc. you can't define evil in terms of suffering since that is irrefutably subjective. I stubbed my toe, is that evil? Evil is defined in degrees of suffering? The more the suffering the greater the evil? That is an existential view that takes any and all objectivity out of the equation. There has to be another standard for evil.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 12:20 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;108388 wrote:
Accidents aren't evil. There has to be a distinction between evil and accidents. Think about it logically, what is an accident? A car crash, an earthquake, etc. you can't define evil in terms of suffering since that is irrefutably subjective. I stubbed my toe, is that evil? Evil is defined in degrees of suffering? The more the suffering the greater the evil? That is an existential view that takes any and all objectivity out of the equation. There has to be another standard for evil.


But I specifically said that accidents are not evil. I said that they were an evil. Suffering, I pointed out is subjective in the sense that people can feel only their own suffering. But that doesn't mean that people suffer only if I believe they suffer, does it. It is "subjective" for them, but not for me. A person clearly in agony is suffering, even if only she feels the suffering. Do you want to say that it isn't a fact about a person who has cancer that he is suffering even if only he feels the suffering? Stubbing my toe is such a trivial bad thing to happen that the word "evil" is too solemn for it. But if I get stomach cancer, then yes. I would call that an evil, and so would you. It is an objective fact that a person who is in agony had a bad thing happen to him, an evil. As I said, if you don't like the word, "evil" for some reason, just say a very bad thing has happened to that person. Everyone would agree with that.

You seem to think that the word "evil" is synonymous with "wicked". But that is true only about moral, intentional, evil. Cancer is not wicked, but it is pretty bad, nevertheless.
0 Replies
 
Camerama
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 12:43 pm
@IntoTheLight,
maybe its ignorance but i dont see the distinction between "evil" and an "evil" except linguistically. It is synonymous with a bad thing. I can concede that suffering is objective, but such a standard equates EVERY moral "evils." Suffering is evident, but how do you suggest you measure it?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 12:55 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;108393 wrote:
maybe its ignorance but i dont see the distinction between "evil" and an "evil" except linguistically. It is synonymous with a bad thing. I can concede that suffering is objective, but such a standard equates EVERY moral "evils." Suffering is evident, but how do you suggest you measure it?


I don't have to measure the table in front of me to know it is objectively there. But we can tell that some pain is worse than other pain, can't we. And I think that scientists have a measuring scale for pain. I don't understand what you mean by, "equates EVERY moral "evils." Equates how? Some moral evils are worse than others. Obviously. Just as some non-moral evils are worse than others. The adjective "evil" is commonly used to mean "wicked" or morally bad. But, "an evil" is used as a noun to designate a bad happening which causes pain and suffering. Cancer is an evil, It is painful, and may cause death. But it is not wicked, or morally bad. But Hitler was evil. He was a wicked person who intentionally caused great suffering and pain. He, of course, also caused evils. The Belsen was an evil.
Camerama
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 02:21 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;108394 wrote:
I don't have to measure the table in front of me to know it is objectively there. But we can tell that some pain is worse than other pain, can't we. And I think that scientists have a measuring scale for pain. I don't understand what you mean by, "equates EVERY moral "evils." Equates how? Some moral evils are worse than others. Obviously. Just as some non-moral evils are worse than others. The adjective "evil" is commonly used to mean "wicked" or morally bad. But, "an evil" is used as a noun to designate a bad happening which causes pain and suffering. Cancer is an evil, It is painful, and may cause death. But it is not wicked, or morally bad. But Hitler was evil. He was a wicked person who intentionally caused great suffering and pain. He, of course, also caused evils. The Belsen was an evil.




Why are we even discussing physical evil, in a philosophy forum, under the branch of philosophy of religion? Pain or suffering as the standard of evil equates evils, because suffering is subjective. I was speaking morally i don't understand why you were speaking physically. You cannot empirically measure suffering, therefore making it the standard or barometer of evil is useless. You have tied evil to linguistics, when the concept, in itself, transcends language. I dont see the relevance
 

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